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Water cannon for London

(172 Posts)
Riverwalk Wed 11-Jun-14 15:34:28

I can't believe we are heading in this direction ...... I associate these vehicles(weapons) with dictatorships.

Boris Johnson has been cornered into being blasted by one to 'show they are safe'.

I wonder who else should join him!

Boris

jinglbellsfrocks Sat 14-Jun-14 22:36:42

He got a good bargain! Got them second-hand I believe. Good for him.

I don't want to see old, well respected family businesses going up in smoke again.

HollyDaze Sat 14-Jun-14 22:35:30

Penstemmon - I have seen television reports where protesters have rioted and ordinary protesters have become injured by their fellow rioting protesters. Maybe it's time to think of another way of protesting (well, I'm out of ideas anyway!).

I just think it's unfair to send the police into those situations, where they are always hopelessly outnumbered, with nothing more than a plastic shield and a baton and police riot vans being overturned! I would hate to see our police armed so, for me, the water cannon could be effective if things get out of hand (and I really don't see them indiscriminately spraying people off their feet!).

whitewave Sat 14-Jun-14 22:32:10

If he was then he was ill advised, as water cannon will never stop riots.

Penstemmon Sat 14-Jun-14 22:32:05

maybe if Boris spent the money ( millions I understand!) in other ways people may feel less inclined to riot! wink

Penstemmon Sat 14-Jun-14 22:30:26

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blair_Peach I was on this demo.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Kevin_Gately

For information

jinglbellsfrocks Sat 14-Jun-14 22:27:17

Boris - mayor of LONDON - was obviously thinking of rioting hordes setting fire to family businesses and homes, when he made his purchase. Not peaceful demonstrations!

Hysterical thinking or what! hmm

Penstemmon Sat 14-Jun-14 22:24:43

hollydaze seriously it is not as straight forward as that! Things can kick off very quickly and then all protesters are held (kettled) by police and are not allowed to leave.

HollyDaze Sat 14-Jun-14 22:21:20

How do we know there aren't more cases where police have used excessive force? - because people get their phones out and record everything pronto!

If people want to protest in an aggressive or violent way, that is their choice - do they have the right to 'drag' others into that? I would argue no, they don't have that right. The last riots in the UK were dreadful and the police were ill-equipped to deal with it.

whitewave Sat 14-Jun-14 22:19:08

ana that's OK then I thought that you meant that we shouldn't protest because of the possibility of getting hurt! Some women have died in this country as a result of protesting for our freedom - we mustn't belittle their actions and suggest that they should not have protested.

I am sure that this debate was carried on at the beginning of the last century, and hopefully will continue to do so in the coming century - "long live the revolution!!!! "

Eloethan Sat 14-Jun-14 22:12:55

How do we know there aren't more cases where police have used excessive force?

When Mr Tomlinson was first injured, the initial report from the police suggested that it was a member of the public who had caused his injuries. It was only after a man, an American I think, released a film of the incident to the Guardian that the police admitted it was one of their own officers who had pushed Mr Tomlinson over. It was only then that the IPCC opened a full investigation (they'd previouslsy refused to). They proceeded to get a very dodgy pathologist to carry out the post mortem examination. He concluded that Mr Tomlinson had died of a heart attack (he was I think awaiting a disciplinary hearing and has subsequently been de-registered). Three further pathologists disaagreed with this finding and stated that Mr Tomlinson's death had been caused by internal bleeding. It was subsequently revealed that the police officer had some years earlier been involved in a "road rage" incident but before the matter could be properly investigated, he retired (on full pension) on medical grounds. He then worked for the police as a civilian member of staff and later re-applied to the force and was taken on as a police constable, where twelve more complaints of improper use of force were lodged against him, including one brought by a fellow officer and another by a member of the public who said he'd seen the police officer assault someone.

In every profession there will always be people who are inadequate to the task, who abuse their position or who are temperamentally unsuited. I think the more worrying issue in this matter is that there appears to have been an attempt by other people in authority to cover up what had happened. It's therefore hardly surprising that some people don't automatically trust the judicial system on every occasion.

On the subjects of demonstrations, in my view, it is sometimes justifiable for people to demonstrate and even to commit acts of civil disobedience. Many people now admire those suffragettes who risked life and limb, and were force fed in prison, in an effort to obtain votes for women. At the time they were widely disparaged (by women also).

HollyDaze Sat 14-Jun-14 22:10:04

I saw the footage of what happened to Mr Tomlinson and yes, I've heard of the term 'kettling'. The problem the police have is that they won't know who is an agitator and who isn't (that doesn't excuse what they did to him though).

I still feel that once things start to get out of hand, peaceful protesters should leave the scene as quickly as possible - why would anyone hang around? If those who are peaceful leave as soon as the unpleasantness rears it's head, there is less likelihood of them getting caught up in it.

I know with Mr Tomlinson he was on his way home so maybe the pavements should be cordened off for ordinary pedestrians and keep the protesters away from people just going about their daily routine.

Ana Sat 14-Jun-14 22:06:45

(should have read 'I mentioned' - having keyboard problems at the moment!)

Ana Sat 14-Jun-14 22:05:27

Yes of course, Penstemmon - mentioned the term earlier in this thread.

whitwave, no I didn't mean that, but I certainly think they should be aware of all possibilities and that the police may have to take whatever action is deemed necessary in the circumstances.

Penstemmon Sat 14-Jun-14 21:55:41

I think you will find that Mr Tomlinson was trying to avoid the demo! At demos if you want to break out you often have to pass a police line. The policy is often not to allow you to do so as they want to contain the demo in one space. You will have heard the term 'kettling'.

whitewave Sat 14-Jun-14 21:51:16

ana interested to read your last remark about the right to protest, not sure quite what you mean though. Do you mean that if there is likely to be some sort of danger of getting hurt people should not protest?

HollyDaze Sat 14-Jun-14 21:35:04

It does seem that way doesn't it Ana - it doesn't make sense.

Ana Sat 14-Jun-14 21:29:41

Me too, HollyDaze, but for some the 'right to protest' is obviously more important than safeguarding their own safety and that of others, even when the situation is obviously getting out of hand.

HollyDaze Sat 14-Jun-14 21:16:16

What happened to Mr Tomlinson was awful and showed the worst aspect of some police officers but they are in the minority or there would be more cases like Mr Tomlinson's.

No, I haven't been to demonstrations at all (just never had the time to be honest) but if I could see things were kicking off with certain groups (in front of me or behind me), I would make sure I stayed well away from them - even if that meant abandoning the demonstration; I wouldn't risk being arrested let alone physically hurt.

Penstemmon Sat 14-Jun-14 21:01:15

I am assuming you have not been on many big demos because in my experience it is very easy for peaceful protesters to get entangled with a more extreme group or a line of police who have been ordered to stop the demo. Mr Tomlinson was being peaceful when he was attacked.

HollyDaze Sat 14-Jun-14 20:50:34

I don't think the idea is to blast any protester though is it - surely it would be when the protest turns into a riot situation again. It has to be better than rubber bullets or tear gas. The police have to have something at their disposal and it's certainly better than sending out armed police which would almost certainly end up with fatalities.

rosesarered Sat 14-Jun-14 20:49:37

Sigh! Water cannon will not be used to break up lawful peaceful street protests.

Ana Sat 14-Jun-14 20:49:33

I don't think they'd consider using water cannon on a group of peaceful protesters, Penstemmon. It would be reserved for seriously out-of-control rioting.

Penstemmon Sat 14-Jun-14 20:45:45

I go to demos usually with a group of friends. We have gone to many over the years: CND, Greenham onwards. At 63 I am the youngest of the group, the eldest of my friends who usually go is now 76. I think if she got caught by a water canon she may be badly hurt. Just because you are older or , maybe disabled, does not mean you stop using your right to publicly protest.

jinglbellsfrocks Sat 14-Jun-14 18:46:16

Have water cannons got controls? Is it just an on/off switch, or can they be turned down? (perhaps a lightish hosing down to start off with, along the lines of a power washer)

Eloethan Sat 14-Jun-14 18:31:18

Sorry Ana - mistake.