Things getting worse for young women?

I would have loved to share- but for all sorts of reasons, it was just not possible.

You are probably right- what I am questioning is the reason/s.

And as said, as long as this is the case....

What did you want absent? Did you want to do the ^majority of it?

I probably only know 1 young mum out of 20, that would rather that her male partner does the majority of childcare.
But as I say, for all I know, it may be different elsewhere.

No need to duck. And yes, women can be their own worst enemies in so many ways. Nothing wrong with them having the choice- but too often this is for all the wrong reasons- and the choice is actually imposed by their men and by expectations and outside pressures.

My only basis is what I have noticed and seen from the young people I know.
I am quite happy for you and others to say that I have got it wrong.

Do you have any basis for that assertion soontobe? A lot of childcare is excruciatingly boring but has to be done and, very often, it is mum who knuckles down and gets on with it. I recall my ex saying something along the lines that he would spend more time with our daughter, then a baby, once she could talk and was more interesting. I don't think this attitude was unique to him.

I will add a more perhaps controversial thought.
That the majority of women want to do the majority of childcare? Even nowadays.
<ducks>

then it is time to go back to square one, and teach them how to love themselves and improve their self-esteem- truly! I despair.

Women want to be loved. Hence they will alter themselves.

Those were the kind of things that I thought of when I saw the topic title, JessM. I get the impression that many young women are being influenced to alter themselves to try to fit in with increasingly unreasonable expectations of men. Also that it is becoming increasingly acceptable for men to make sexist vicious "jokes".
If this type of culture takes hold there will be little hope of fairness within families or anywhere else.

That is very sad for these young girls.

I was thinking about that aspect at the start of this thread, JessM.

It's all very well talking of equality, maternity and paternity leave and childcare issues but in some respects young women, especially teenagers, do have it worse than we did.

The 'permissive society' seems to have morphed into something quite sinister, fuelled by internet images of airbrushed women, easy access to pornography and of course the Facebook phenomenon. An awful lot of young women feel pressurised not only to look the part but to act it too. Very worrying...

The sexual freedom enabled by the pill is not all good is it. Arguably men have been the beneficiaries. These days young women seem to be expected (by young men) to depilate their crotches, consent to anal intercourse and generally mimic the antics of porn stars.

It is certainly true that many young people have higher expectations and that their ability and willingness to make do and mend as we did is probably less. But housing costs are a huge factor in both parents needing to work, and I think things were easier on that score when we were starting out.

Having said that, I think my youngest DD has bought virtually nothing for her 2 year old or for the new baby arriving soon. She has been very happy to have hand-me-downs and it is a bit of a family joke that she has spent nowt! But good for her - why waste money on posh stuff when there is good stuff going begging?

While I agree that feminism shouldn't be solely child-based, I think it's a bit like the pill. Take away family planning and we are stuffed. It freed us up incredibly, and the fact is, a far higher proportion of women work in Sweden than do over here - and are better paid by comparison. I think it is pretty much solely down to the child care - which seems very good. I would have loved to have gone back to work, but couldn't afford the local child care and had no nearby family to help out.

Brown thermoplastic tiles. Homemade orange curtains, thrown out Ercol
chairs from GPs. Second hand studio couch, cardboard boxes covered with cheap fabric remnants as occasions and bedside tables. Oh! And one brand new rocking chair ( wedding present from grateful patient of my father)
Thrown out table from parents and old surgery chairs from father's surgery!

I do understand that house prices and rents are high, and I dont want to get into more discussions about house prices, but yes granjura we were skint, car was old, we didnt go out, clothes for children were from friends with older children or NCT nearly new sales, push chair was second hand ( paid for with money given to me) etc. When I left work to go on maternity leave, having given notice that I did not plan to return, a colleague was also going on leave to have twins, but she was coming back. I used to hear tales of their two cars and holidays abroad.....We were also fortunate as after a while DH was able to work a lot from home and so I was able to study and do a few things i wanted to do. When I look at photos of our first house.......wild golden patterned axminster carpet that came with the house (and wouldnt wear out ), my sanderson patterned sofa in pale pink and blue ( from when I was single) and a pair of second hand curtains, it was enough to induce en epileptic fit with all the clashing colours and patterns but we couldnt afford to do anything about it for several years.

As a senior manager- I had this problem all the time. Mothers taking time off again and again for sick children- and when told their husband had to take their turn, replied that 'they couldn't possibly as they had responsible jobs, were paid more, couldn't cope with sick children, children needed their mum' etc, etc.

I don't think nursery care is state funded is it? As I understand it, children over 3 get a certain number of hours paid for but it in no way covers the full cost. And most nurseries these days are private - from what I have seen, some of them are in unsuitable premises and don't appear to be very well run. I think it's an indictment on our whole notion of priorities in this country that pre-school day care is not of the highest standard possible.

I agree that until children are seen as the responsibility of both parents, there will never be equality. I don't believe this is necessarily the system's fault. Even when both parents are working full time, some men are only too happy to palm nearly all domestic issues off onto their partners and seem to take it for granted that their partner will be the one to take time off if a child is sick or has an appointment.

I think men and women should be working shorter hours, even if the government has to subsidise it. I think in the long run it would save a lot of money as I believe there would be less family breakdown, time to interact with children and to prepare decent food and therefore better health, etc. etc.

'we were skint but could manage'

GillT57- and significant here, perhaps. I do agree that things may be tough for young families- but I also think it is due to a significant shift in attitude and expectations. We made do with all sorts of things we didn't like but were affordable. OH made our beds, I made bean bags to sit on, we have a crate with a top as a coffee table, nothing matched and we didn't care. I had a very cheap second-hand pram and a second-hand pushchair - you practically need a mortgage to buy one now! We didn't have brand new kitchens and holidays abroad, our cars were clapped out and we wallpapered everything with wood-chip and painted (a b****3 to remove...- and birthday and Christmas presents were only the one, etc, etc.

There is so much upmanship nowadays and pressure from magazines and TV.

I stayed at home for 8 years- for all sorts of reasons. I was handciapped ba a severe accident, then we had to move twice, and I had to remain at home as un unglorified and unpaid 'receptionist' and also had to improve my language skills to be employable, etc, etc- whereas OH was at the beginning of his career. It was amazing though, that when youngest started school, and OH working very long hours- he was prepared to adjust, adapt and work even harder to enable me to go back to full-time study and a career of my own. Sadly, so few men are prepared to be home-dads, or share child-care and home-care, in order to allow their wives to work in more responsible jobs, at the top of the game, rather than part-time, low responsibiltiy jobs.

janerowena I dont think our society would be like the Swedish model if Cameron stays in power for one simple reason; high taxation. I lived and worked in Norway some years ago, and yes everyone worked whether parent/single parent, and everyone seemed to have decent accommodation and job prospects but this is very expensive, and although the Norwegians seemed to be perfectly happy with this situation, (as I would), I really dont think that a right wing government that is trying to back out of every provision other than the barest minimum in an effort to cut the deficit is going to be taking us to a high taxation, high welfare model. I really think I am lucky to have had the choice to stay at home with our children for the first few years; we were skint but could manage, I dont think my ( at present teenage) children are likely to have the same choice when they have families. Having said that, I do feel myself getting irritated when 'women's issues' discussions focus solely on child care, this isnt what feminism is all about, we will not have true equality until this becomes a family issue, not a women's issue. And yes, I do feel sorry for the poor little souls being raised in baby barns, however nice the staff, it is not home.

This is why lots of grandparents are doing the job - both parents have to work to pay the mortgage, parents don't want their child "being dumped all day in some sort of state funded day care" and grandparents make it possible for parents to work and for the child to be cared for in a homely setting with someone who loves them.

So it looks as if feminism has given us a job for life - I am not complaining as I love it, but their contribution needs to be recognised as the crucial factor that it is.

and yet- it is still expected that- if you don't want kids in childcare- then it is up to the mother (as per your post) to be the one with the job that allows for this. Or am I reading you wrong?

Don't forget rights for children. Being dumped all day in some sort of state funded day care isn't great. I am a feminist and worked all my life. I arranged my working hours to suit my children's best interests. Providing child care is certainly not the be all and end all of placating women. We can also help other women in a variety of ways ourselves -promoting their interests, mentoring, pushing them beyond their comfort zones,helping them to build their confidence. We don't need to sit back and wait to be given better recognition . Go girls!