child poverty

Re my last post, I was relating the story to gillybob's post regarding children being shouted at. Of course this happens in families other than poor families and because one is poor it does not mean the children are treated badly at all.

Yes, but no one is telling me what 'child poverty' is! Obviously a child has no income, so it must relate to to their parents' income.

I'm sure everyone could cite an example of neglect, emotional or physical abuse directed towards childen, but that can happen in any family.

And I can remember having wool 'put by' and buying a couple of balls a week to knit for DC.

Poverty is relative, but as gillybob said in her post, meters are fitted for those unable to pay resulting in cold and hardship for those in difficulty as they then have to pay more for their fuel.
If they get into difficulty with their bank account that can be a downward spiral, bank charges can get out of control so those in most difficulty are penalised again.

Most people would always put their children first and go without themselves, but not everyone unfortunately.

Many women did not go out to work in the 50s and 60s, my MIL was widowed during the war but did not go out to work, I don't know how she managed but she did. My DM worked part-time but still managed to knit, sew, cook meals from scratch etc, my DP were really hard up but I always had decent shoes and warm clothes as did my brothers.

In which case, many children of affluent parents are similarly neglected and/or abused.

I don't see what bad parenting and children being shouted at have to do with 'child poverty'. What is child poverty? I'm assuming it can be assessed in financial terms, or does it include deprivation in the examples given above?

Just for the record, by no means everyone who is poor is a bad or abusive parent. Many work hard, encourage their children to do well in school and do their best to provide nutritious meals.

I once witnessed a grandmother punching her little grandson, he was only about 18 months. He was also covered in bruises on his face. I did report it to Social Services (her husband is a drinker and they are always shouting at the grandchildren) Don't see them any more.

I see children in my DGC's school that I could cry for JessM just as you describe they have totally inappropriate clothes and shoes on for the weather. Little summer dresses and socks (in one particular case) when it's so cold outside. My DGC have 4 layers on plus hats, scarves and gloves too.

I also hate it when parents shout at their children in public. I was in town a week or two back and my DH had to drag me away from a mother who was shouting and bawling at her child who must have been only 5-6 years old. Her voice was going right through me and she was using disgusting language. I stopped and asked if there was a problem and could I do anything. I was told to f**k off and mind my own business. My DH had to drag me away. I cried my eyes out. Poor little lamb what sort of life must she have?

Just watch some children going to school, on a cold winter's day, in a depressed area where there is a high level of families on benefits. You will see children going to school without coats and wearing cheap shoes that are falling apart. If they have packed lunch boxes look inside and you will see that they contain a couple of biscuits. Many of the parents may have mental health problems or literacy/numeracy type problems that make it very difficult for them to find any work. Sometimes there just isn't any work to be had.

There is a lot of nasty and vicious reporting by papers like the Daily Nasty. Child poverty is not always measurable in terms of income, as a teenager I had a friend whose Mother was always out, left frozen or dried (Vesta curries) food for dinner, didn't know where we were or who with.....definition of neglect, but she was a magistrate, bastion of the local Conservative club and was very good at telling other people how they should live their lives. Needless to say I thought it was great as my dad was a policeman and was a very protective parent! Not wishing to be flippant, but the point i am making is that my friend and her sister were emotionally neglected, they rarely ate together as a family, and were fed on processed rubbish but they certainly had plenty of money. As an adult, she didn't even tell her parents that she was getting married until the day before as her Mother didn't like her 'working class' boyfriend.

How is 'child poverty' defined? I'm sure we've discussed this on here before, but I can't remember whether it was ever satisfactorily resolved!

What is this "Oldie Borum" thing anyway?

I agree whitewave why should children suffer for their parents mistakes?

Of course there is relative poverty in the UK.
Even with feckless parents, I would try to assist the children as none of it is their fault - Sure Start was set up to try and address some of these problems with the intention of giving these children a different focus and assist the parents with their parenting skills, pity the Sure Start centres are not being supported.

Incidentally neither of them smoke although they do have a TV !

I am finding myself agreeing with some of Iain Duncan Smith's proposed indicators of poverty durhamjen although must confess I have not read the whole proposal (only what you have written).

My son and DiL had a huge (to them) debt problem (although perhaps a drop in the ocean to many others) caused by the fact that they simply could not afford to pay their gas and electric bills. My son lost his job and they were struggling along on my DiL's small wage and getting no help from anywhere. They ran up bills of a few hundred pounds that might just have well been millions to them as they could not pay. We were unaware at the time but the situation escalated and resulted in them having prepayment meters installed into their home which were pre-set to to collect the outstanding debt, plus fees, charges, and whatever else. The meters were set so high that they could not afford to have the heating on, which meant that they could not repay the debt (if you understand what I mean). With three small children in the house, if that is not an indication of poverty I dont know what is? Thankfully we have sorted the situation although we cannot have the bloody prepayment meters removed, so its a case of no money, no heating, no cooking. My family are quite fortunate in that I can step in to help where I can. My son is now back in work and I buy things on bogof offers and send them over, I help out with dinner money, milk money, childcare etc. They are both working and have less than most people on benefits which cannot be right.

Sorry for the rant.

I think there is undeniably a section of society that screw the benefit system for all it's worth, smoke, drink, drive to the supermarket and stock up on cheap stick-it-in-the-microwave meals, which they feed to their children to eat in front of the big screen TV .

These are the families that the Daily Rant likes to focus on.

Sadly there are other families who are struggling to put a decent meal on the table and are living on far less. Many of these don't possess a car and are reliant on local shops. The kind of shops where you have little choice of fresh fruit and vegetables but plenty of junk food and alcohol. And at top prices. I used to work in one such area and it was impossible to put together a healthy lunch for myself if I had forgotten to make one earlier.

So yes, there is genuine child poverty around and don't be lured into believing otherwise by the press or examples of professional scroungers.

Thank you all for the statistics and reports; it good to be able to refute or query generalised allegations which cite no evidence.

falseeconomy.org.uk/blog/feeling-the-squeeze-service-users-and-staff-are-worth-more-than-this
Lots of links on here worth reading.

Unless you are Iain Duncan Smith, Gillybob, who wants to change the indicators. See my previous post.

There is most definitely real poverty in this country cactus60 and I see it often. Why try to compare 2014 with the 1960's? It is like comparing 1960 with 1910 ! Would you really like to go back to those times?

Surely poverty is relative to the time and the place.

cactus60, you might find these worrying stats and projections enlightening. There is no more authoritative source than the Child Poverty Action Group.

There is a big argument going on at the moment between the DWP and the Treasury.
Duncan Smith wants to change the yardsticks from purely financial to include living in a family with problem debt; living in poor housing or a problem area; living in an unstable family environment; attending a failing school; having parents without the skills to get on; having parents in poor health. The social mobility and child poverty commission, set up by this government and chaired by Alan Milburn, wants to keep the relative poverty committment, and has warned that ministers are on track to miss the 2020 targets. There are two million children still living in poverty according to present statistics. Move the goal posts and there might be fewerchildren living in poverty.

How did you have time to check the homes of all families on benefits cactus to know what furniture they have, see these huge TV sets they ALL have and how when you were in all the supermarkets did you have time to ask everyone you saw with a basket piled with food if they were on benefits

Are those who have bought their furniture when working but are now unemployed on your list of greedy parents, widows and widowers with young children are greedy parents?

Was your mother in a marriage or had her husband walked out in her? surely with all that knitting and dress making she didn't have time to go out to work.

Perhaps you think those parents on benefits should wear a label , it would make your life easier, so much time spent looking into all those windows and all those trolleys