Literacy and numeracy standards

I worked as a social worker - so I had contact with many families for whom education was simply a meaningless concept. They simply couldn't see the point of getting up early to take the children to school when you could leave them in front of the TV with a packet of crisps.

That is the sort of family I was talking about, not ordinary decent people facing problems in their lives of one sort or another. I was trying to avoid usuing the phrase "problem familes" as it has gone out of favour. Anyone who has practised SW will know exactly what I mean, and it is very sad for the children.

I have just been chatting to my DD who is well educated - she has an MA. But she knows very little about grammar - and fully admits this. The business that she and her OH run carries the necessity to produce publicity materials and she always comes to us to check the grammar.

She has no confidence in her ability to get it right and says that she did not learn grammar at school. Her comment was that the teachers just fed her the stuff to get through exams and grammar did not count.

No lack of intelligence here; but a huge and frustrating gap in her education, which has probably been shared my most of her generation.

I think it is unfair to imply that teachers are primarily to blame for falling educational standards. You can't view education in isolation from the rest of society. In the UK in particular, there is an over-emphasis on trivia and superficiality, and an increasing number of young people have a very narrow view of what "success" might be.

Hardly a week goes by without some glamorous awards ceremony being televised, where film actors, pop stars, soap stars, sportsmen/women, etc., etc., are heaped with praise and treated like demi-gods for doing something that they enjoy and for which they are highly paid. Is it any wonder that young people aspire to this sort of lifestyle and therefore view education as superfluous to what they want out of life.

I take your point Mishap but not all of us have a knowledge of social-worker-speak.

I don't know if or how you can access yesterdays Back Bench Debate in Parliament but if you are genuinely interested in this topic it is worth catching up with it. I caught it on BBC Parliament, Freeview 81, 11.30a.m.

Conservative M.P Caroline Dineage put forward a debate titled 'Adult Literacy and Numeracy'. I taped it and watched it today. I must say it was a nice change to see decent M.P's acknowledge the OECD report was a disgrace, by 'BOTH' sides of the house. There was a little partisan politics shown but the debate was very sensible and raised good points. The yobbo section were missing, thank goodness and it was a pleasure to see parliament doing it's job in an intelligent fashion. I was appalled at the numbers I saw in the house though, at one time there were 4 Labour MP's, 12 Tory MP's and no Lib Dems.

It would be refreshing if the atmosphere and thoughts displayed yesterday could be carried forward and for once all parties concentrated on getting our children educated to a good standard. Too much to ask, probably.

And nearly everyone delights in saying how bad they are at maths or how much they hate it. Not v inspiring for the little ones is it?

Jess very true. And as you imply ('delights in saying') those who seem to take pride in this attitude make me want to scream.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/oct/11/baby-p-hamzah-khan-tory-vandalism-gove
An interesting take by Polly Toynbee re Gove and his attacks on social work and the education system. Is it true, Mishap?
I know that my grandson would not have seen a speech therapist and been diagnosed with ASD so quickly if his parents had not moved to an area with a Sure Start centre.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/oct/11/baby-p-hamzah-khan-tory-vandalism-gove
Sorry, forgot the link, again.

www.scotsman.com/lifestyle/books/barry-norman-on-dealing-with-the-loss-of-his-wife-1-3138182

Just read this very moving article in The Scotsman and was struck by the fact that neither of them had any tertiary education at all but both went on to be very successful writers. No one today would dream of employing a journalist without at least an honours degree and yet the standard of writing in newspapers and journals is often appalling.

Jendurham - I read the article yesterday. I was particularly struck the removal of any reference to children or families when Gove started his campaign of terror. The Daily Mail is having a real go at the Guardian, and Polly particularly this morning. It's along the familiar lines of lefties hate Britain and spoil everything.

I see the Guardian have very kindly given Paul Dacre quite a large spread in the CIF today. I am not sure he would appreciate it being accompanied by a photo of Alastair Campbell, though.
I haven't read it all yet, but what he appears to be saying is that if we do not agree with him, then we are not being fair. Hmm....

I have tried to resist posting but here I am!

Comparing potatoes grown in Lincolnshire with those grown in Colarado will mean that Lincolnshire potatoes always do better! That is because the context for potato growing is much better in Lincolnshire.

Education is always within the context of the society it is educating and not just the school! There are many differences between England and the other countries that are 'above' us on the OECD league table. A key one might be that other languages are more phonetic making the basic skills of reading and writing much easier. They also generally have less difference between the richest /poorest and also do not have the history of public schools/class & educational snobbery. Attitudes about the value of education are apparently more positive in all the countries 'above' us on the list and teachers are a more respected and valued group. There is considerably less interference from politicians and fewer changes instigated central government. Those working with the youngest children often have equivalent levels of qualification to those educating older children.

I think there are so many things that cannot be neatly measured too. There is lots of evidence that says that British employees are valued abroad because they can think laterally, work in teams, use their own initiative etc
Also our "gold standard" A level does not include Maths and English (or the relevant native language) so students are not automatically studying these post 16 as is the case in most other countries.
It really is comparing apples and pears.
I don't think the constant attacks on teachers help. I am amazed at how much respect teachers still have here in France, when I know from working in both systems, how much harder the teachers work in the UK.

indeed mamie

And I am no apologist for poor teaching or school leadership but there are more good & committed teachers and headteachers than not!

Indeed Penstemmon, I find it very hard to match this negative view with the teaching and learning that I have seen with my own eyes in so many schools.

I spent a couple of interesting hours tonight talking in a pub in Soho, London. I was talking to a guy who was Deputy Head of a Primary school in Poplar, It was such an eye opener for me. He had no hope for the future, no hope for the children in his school - reason being, the parents. The parents were on drugs, alcohol whatever, had never worked and had zero aspiration for themselves or their children. He wanted so much for the children in his school but had given up trying to inspire them, there was no point and no back up.

I just think how different it was when I was young and parents did aspire for better things for their children. Education was the route out of poverty. I wonder how many on Gransnet went to a Grammar school and flourished because of it. I did.

Areas in the country that still have selective education way out perform those who don't. Why condemn children to mediocrity?

No I failed my 11+ and went to a secondary mod. Of the girls I knew who went to grammar school I happen to have had an equal if not more 'successful' career.

Indeed. All children deserve a good education and not made to feel like a failure at11.

The only people who like grammars are those who were selected (or their kids) Most children do not get into grammar schools. Only some of the naturally able or heavily coached. make it. Loads of my sec mod friends went to uni or college and have had gd careers. DDs both in non selective state schols in sth London. Both got gd degrees and have gd jobs. Grammar schools will not solve the problem. Even Gove knows that otherwise he would have bought them back. Where they still exist many take kids from miles away and they no longer serve the bright working class as people of our age recall.

I too failed my 11+ and when it came to my future I was told by the Headmistress of the secondary modern school I could either work in a shop or an office; the sum total of my options! I worked in a bank.

Returning to that sort of a tiered system would be dreadful. My children are all doing well in their chosen fields thanks to the Comprehensive education.

My grandchildren had an excellent education in a comprehensive school in a small town in East Yorkshire. One has just completed a nursing degree, another is reading bio-medical sciences and the two that transferred to New Zealand at the secondary level have both been awarded the 'academic prizes' in their respective years. Yes, they all work hard, but they had enormous help and encouragement from their school.

That's the issue Greatnan surely? I'm delighted that your grandchildren were fortunate enough to attend a decent comprehensive. There are a great many adequate, good, outstanding primary and secondary schools but there are still some which are denying their pupils a good education. So what happens to the pupils who are unfortunate enough to have to attend one of the inadequate schools?

I don't think state schools have much of a chance while the education system is run by politicians who didn't go to state schools themselves and have no intention of sending their children to state schools.
When my son was going out with a Ukrainian teacher she was amazed at the way people were trying to get into the catchment area of "good" schools. She said that in the Ukraine all schools were equal and you expected to get the same good level of education wherever you lived.

It is the catchment that can impact on a school and make the work for some schools much harder. I cannot think many people dispute that. If the school serves areas where most families that are aspirational, supportive and have the financial stability to provide a secure home then the work of teachers is more straightforward. If the school serves an area where families are struggling to make ends meet, are workless and transient then teachers are facing additional challenges. If parental attitudes undermine school / education/ teachers as well then the job can be a thankless task and it takes huge amount of resiliance to return day after day to the classroom both for students who want to learn and for the teachers too. Very few recent governments have been willing to tackle that seriously and now Gove is dismantling Sure Start which worked with families and there is a growing attitude of haves /have nots and dismissal of the poorest. This is only going to make it worse for schools in those areas. It is actually not always about the school!

Very interesting Hunt said on Andrew Marr this morning that the OECD report "Is a wake up call". Can't defend the indefensible sometimes.

He has also nailed Labours colours to the mast and it looks like a U-Turn over Labours view on Free Schools. He certainly has changed his mind. I still found hypocrisy though in what he said, e.g Teachers should be qualified to teach, when he has taught in schools himself and he is not a qualified teacher, I believe Miliband has done so in the past as well hasn't he? Not that I am an advocate of un-qualified teachers but there are circumstances when it is perfectly in order to me.

I am hoping that Hunt, even with a mixed message, emulates the debate I watched in Parliament (as I have mentioned in a post before) and at last some sort of cross party agreement can be reached for the sake of our children and their futures. Probably too much to hope for alas.