The Golliwog

I understand that some people find gollywogs racist.That's why my kids didn't have them. That's why DD3 doesn't even know what one is. If she saw one, I don't even know what her reaction would be but she doesn't seem to think differences in skin colour are terribly important. Is it racist to encourage colour-blindness in this respect or not?

I like noticing the differences in features and skin colour of people. To me it's the same as noticing differences in regional accents. You then get the fun of trying to guess, in the latter case where the person grew up, or in the former case, where their ancestors grew up. It is purely observational. I was not being negative about the features I described. What is there to be negative about? There is nothing negative about the greater contrast between the whites of eyes (or teeth) against a dark skin. There is nothing negative about observing that one of the features loosely called 'negroid' in the past (possibly still) is thicker lips than, say, most Europeans have. There are sound evolutionary reasons for common differences in human features in different parts of the world. I don't think it's wrong, in principle, to caricature these differences nor to talk about them. We talk about differences between ancient European groups of people (Latin, Nordic/Germanic, Celtic, etc) and nobody minds.

As somebody said, intent is what counts.

I intended that my kids would grow up non-racist. It's OK to notice differences in how people look. That doesn't mean you treat them differently.

In the 80's a Nigerian woman lived with us for 2 years - a survivor of the Biafran Civil War. We then had a young Sudenese man from Khartoum living with us for 4 years. They had both suffered from black/black (tribal) racism.

Through my knowledge gained in being with these two people, I would say there is much to be said for looking at the context and intent of behaviour towards others, whatever race. They had both seen and experienced much, and worrying about a black doll would be very low on their list.

Same for me Jingle. The first time I ever saw a black person in real life was when I got on a bus with my mum at the age of 5, in 1953. A black man sat opposite us on the long seat and got off at the bus station, where a number of other black men were walking into the offices. I now know that these were men who had sailed over on the Windrush to get jobs here, at the invitation of the British government. I lived on an all-white housing estate and the children at my school were all white British until some refugee children arrived as a result of the Hungarian uprising. We had few black peers in the 50's. It wasn't until I went to grammar school that I had friends of different races, and then I learned that some people objected to black people living in Manchester.

I know more about racism these days, but then I thought it was cut and dried - you don't treat people as you wouldn't like to be treated yourself, and you don't call them names or mock them. I would be happy to see lots of black dolls with appropriate features, like the dolls representing other races; but not dolls that objectify or belittle, whether it's a Barbie, a golliwog or anything else.

I don't think we ever had the chance to be racist when I was a child, even we wanted to be (No. We wouldn't!) Of all the schools I was in, I don't think there was a single black child. This was the forties, early fifties. Small town in Oxfordshire.

Are we really ....

in 2012! Some of the comments here are just incredible.

Short answer ... Yeah NO!

Quite exhausting reading this lot-mainly in total agreement with Bags .I always thought that wog meant wily Oriental gentleman-have I been mislead ? and although I had very limited toys as a postwar child I had a money box which gave me the shudders-a minstrel with a single hand in which you could slot a penny and the hand went to the mouth and swallowed it. Somehow it seemed very unpleasant.

whenimsixtyfour totally agree!

I don't think were going to agree on this one. I have friends and ex-colleagues who would tell me they were sick to death of being the 'lone voice' when explaining why they feel something is racist, and they wished white people would show some support, instead of sitting back and waiting for them to object to the racist joke, unintended hurtful comment or lack of attention to diversity when it came to black issues.

I agree we shouldn't patronise, and jump in to criticise in a nonsenical way. Some people are ok with using derogatory words if there is no intention to be hurtful, others think we should be more sensitive about it. I think golliwogs are symbols of racism and explained to my children why I wouldn't buy such toys, at the same time I explained that I wouldn't provide them with toy weapons, or dolls that objectify females.

I loathe pc fascism, but I have heard how much golliwogs have hurt black people's feelings and I respect what I have learned.

I think dorset means she will not be wasting her time on any more contributions, and I think I feel the same way.

dorsetpent - you wish! (end the thread)

Could someone tell me the difference between a pseudo intellectual and a real intellectual?
The fact that racism is still rampant in the police force belies the claim that ethnic minorities don't need us to be diligent in support of them. Is it patronising to recognise such discrimination and want it to be eradicated?
And the reason white people don't mind being called white is because they think that being white is superior to being any other colour.
It is impossible to have a serious debate when you are told that if you object to what you see as offensive racism you are really just covering up your own racism. What nonsense.
I am glad to be politically correct, if by that its meant that I try not to discriminate in a negative way against any group of people, whether they are disabled, homosexual, or of a different race/colour to my own. PC is just another thoughtless platitude to be used against anybody with whom you do not agree.

We are all, I presume, well aware that slavery was and is practised by non-whites - witness the enslavement of thousands of foreign workers in Dubai and other Middle Eastern states. They are promised good jobs and hope to be able to help their families in the Phillipines, Bangladesh, etc. Instead, they have their passports taken from them and are forced to live ten to a single non-air-conditioned hut, they work long hours in stifling heat and when their employer goes bust, as has happened in Dubai, they are simply abandoned. I object to that - how patronising of me! This does not negate the fact that white slavers, often claiming to be Christians, made millions out of exploiting black people. Have two wrongs suddenly started making a right?

This may well be a generational thing -most young people seem to be much less bigoted, apart from the idiots in the BNP - and the police force. I am thankful that I was raised by parents who were obviously way ahead of their time in their thinking.

Eh dorsetpennt - 'decide to end this thread' ??

Bags before I decide to end this thread - your description of why a golly is made like he is takes my breath away. I wish I hadn't started this thread, with the exception of the sane few is the fact that racism whether deliberate or through ignorance is alive and well in the U.K. [elsewhere too I know}. It has filled me with some sorrow. My daughter feels 'its an age thing' . Could she be right? I hope so I don't want another generation growing up like this.

When my sister and I were little, one granny knitted us golliwogs and the other granny bought Robertson's marmalade and jam so we could collect the stickers and send off for the badges. We loved gollies - and later we loved the Black & White Minstrel Show. But this wasn't racism. We're talking cuddly toys, favourite preserves and fabulous music. So I don't know what all this hysteria is about.

Perhaps people like me - and most of you - should start foaming at the mouth when we're called Whites by other races. But of course we don't, because we are, by and large, an incredibly tolerant and kind nation and we try and welcome everyone to this country, whatever their race, creed or religion.

Some would say too tolerant - but that's another thread for another day.

Barrow I agree with your friend. I've always thought there was something patronising about white (pseudo) liberals rushing in to defend black people at every opportunity, as though black people couldn't do it for themselves, and boosting their own sense of righteousness by doing so.

Also, bending over backwards not to offend black people in all the little ordinary ways we go around offending each other is patronising.

Quite!

Bloody, damned political correctness!

Or perhaps I should say that I share those sentiments with them!

See how careful one has to be!!!!!!!!

Thanks, barrow. Those are my sentiments too and it's encouraging to know that at least some black people share them.

Just to clarify, I was referring to Barrow's combined post, not specifically the last one.

My Mum used to sign this song to me. It was a lullaby. She always sang it after Golden Slumbers.

"I've a little black dolly named Topsy, who doesn't like sleeping alone,
Cause Topsy's afraid of her shadow, though in darkness I know there are none.
But Topsy is only a dolly, and doesn't know better you see,
So I just put her under my pillow, Cos I know she likes sleeping with me.

And in the morning when the sun shines, I sing till I think she's awake,
Then I take her right out in the the garden, and give her a bath in the lake.
But Topsy is blacker than ever, and as shiny and shiny can be,
Though I scrub her and scrub her and scrub her, I can't get her white like me."

My daughter was shocked when she heard me singing it to the grandsons. But I still sing it.

I always thought the girl in the song was a bit silly because I knew my, slightly chipped, black dolly was a pinky red underneath.

I was very envious of the lake in the garden though!

Well said, Barrow, I think you've hit the nail on the head - for me, at any rate!

I have just remember something which he told me he did find offensive. That was what he referred to as the white pseudo-liberals who would talk about rascism and what caused offence to black people. He felt what they were actually saying was that he, as a black man, was too stupid to recognise rascism so they had to do it for him. He felt these people probably had rascist sentiments deep down and would shout rascism to cover up there real thoughts.

I remember some years ago, when the question of the Robertson golliwogs was first raised, I had a conversation about this with an Afro-Carribean friend. He said that a white child playing with a golliwog did not offend him. Someone calling him a golliwog did offend him - it was the context that determined whether it was an insult or not.

Many black people refer to each other using the n word (especially the younger members). Again he explained that using that word themselves there was obviously no offence - some white people using in an obviously insulting manner was offensive. He even said if I were to use the word he would not be upset. When I said I would feel very uncomfortable using the word - it caused laughter amongst the black people present - again they said they knew I would not use it to cause offence so it was OK. I'm not explaining this very well but the crux of their argument was that it was the INTENT that caused the offence, not necessarily the word. (I still won't use the n word!!)

As I see it, the golliwog is a caricature of a black person, or a ridiculous racial stereotype. Just as the Black and White Minstrels were.