EHRC suggestion on toilet facilities

That may seem sensible, but then we'd run into issues with deciding where was a safe 'safe space' (eg in a conference centre) and an unsafe 'safe space', such as an empty platform at night. The guidance has to be clear.

M0nica

I have been to several venues where everything was in cubicles, with floor to ceiling walls and sealing doors, thus ensuring anyone using them total privacy and everyone used them, male, female, trans aand everything else everyone has thought of.

Much simpler and easier.

Quite agree Monica this would solve all the issues and reduce the crazy wait at the ladies at concerts and conferences etc . Everyone happy

Romola

Well, Monica I think I would feel pretty safe in the Wallace collection in broad daylight, in whatever style of facility
Alone on a railway station late at night, as I was this week after the theatre, then I would definitely have wanted the female facilities to be for biological women only.

Alone on a railway station, or anywhere else at night, I would not particularly want to use a public toilet, however badly I needed it!

Exactly.
The issue is much bigger for other facilities such as hospitals, prisons. I also think it might be an issue in open changing rooms especially for teens.

Dickens

Galaxy

The EHRC guidance covers all single sex facilities ( prisons, refuges, etc) and also ensures that for example lesbians can have organisations without the presence of men, it really is about more than toilets.

... it really is about more than toilets.

Hear, hear, Galaxy.

The particular guidance the EHRC has released is just about toilets.

The location of the facilities can be a problem I think as certainly in large shopping malls they tend to be in quiet out of the way places which could be problematic for anybody however they identify.
Personally I think bathrooms should be male only or female only and would suggest that trans people use the disabled loos. I stress I don't consider trans people as disabled and do not intend any insult here just a practical solution. Maybe the signs on these loos could be altered in some way to show they are 'inclusive'?

Urinals mean a bloke turns around and zips up. Not suitable for anyone to see.

To me, it’s the principle of have same-sex spaces enshrined as a right in law. I’m not too bothered about toilets - as long as they are clean - and I think we are talking about toilets rather than the other space because it suits trans activists to debate something that is easier to minimise. The really important single-sex spaces are prisons, rape crisis centres/refuges, schools and hospitals.

Doodledog

I think the reason cubicle doors aren't floor to ceiling is so that emergency services can access them if necessary.

It would be a good reason if the doors didn't open inwards, which they do usually. If you're passed out on the floor they still need tools to get you out unless you're really thin. I thought it was to make it less easy to use the toilets for the wrong reasons.

I'm greatly in favour of separate self-contained toilet rooms. There are lots of reasons people might prefer privacy and to have a wash basin in the same space, for example people needing to change colostomy or urine bags, people with bowel problems, even women with heavy periods might need to clean up before going into a shared space.

Galaxy

The EHRC guidance covers all single sex facilities ( prisons, refuges, etc) and also ensures that for example lesbians can have organisations without the presence of men, it really is about more than toilets.

... it really is about more than toilets.

Hear, hear, Galaxy.

NittWitt

I'm horrified by the idea of putting a handbag on a toilet floor, especially if the toilet is also used by males.
I'll contort myself to keep a hold of my bag, if necessary.

I’m horrified too.
Not in the women’s toilets which aren’t perfect, but certainly not if used by men.
I have held mine between my teeth before now to avoid that.

I'm horrified by the idea of putting a handbag on a toilet floor, especially if the toilet is also used by males.
I'll contort myself to keep a hold of my bag, if necessary.

When I was a teen, the local swimming baths had cubicles down the side of the pool, one side for girls/women one for boys/men.
3 sides went from floor to ceiling, but the front had an ankle depth gap at the bottom and a gap high up at the top.
Mothers or fathers took their younger children with them.
Of course there were no mobile phones then.
The number in the pool was limited by the number of cubicles, with some allowance for extra children.

Doodledog

I think the reason cubicle doors aren't floor to ceiling is so that emergency services can access them if necessary.

Yes, I believe so. Women will often retreat to a lavatory cubicle if we feel unwell.

I think the reason cubicle doors aren't floor to ceiling is so that emergency services can access them if necessary.

Luminance

I think it will take rather some time but ultimately will have a positive outcome. I want my own secure spaces, I have had my bag stolen from a cubicled space before, they simply reached under, grabbed it and I wasn't suitably dressed to give chase.

From the time that I first started carrying a handbag, if there is no hook on the door, if my bag has to go on the floor, I keep one foot inside the strap. I can't remember who told me to do this, but it was a very long time ago.

Maybe having to provide 3 or 4 different toilets for Men, Women, Trans Men and Trans Women will just result in mixed toilets with complete privacy. Which I think will solve a lot of problems. I have never had any problems with mixed toilets and I know some men would prefer the privacy instead of having to use the urinals in front of everyone. I would not like it if the cubicles in women's toilets did not have doors so all the other women could see me going to the loo.

Wyllow3

More the better, really. I mean individual ones.

Yes. Simply build unisex separate cubicles with wash basins in them. Older buildings won’t be able to be changed and just do this with new toilets.

I think it will take rather some time but ultimately will have a positive outcome. I want my own secure spaces, I have had my bag stolen from a cubicled space before, they simply reached under, grabbed it and I wasn't suitably dressed to give chase.

"It's not just about fear of attack though. It's about dignity and privacy too.

Also, the Ladies is one of the few places where women are able to go to talk to one another without men - perhaps to tell someone they are afraid, to ask if anyone has a spare tampon - all sorts of things."

Yes definitely - in the gym I know well its a bit of a mini social hub at times, tho there is a cafe as well.

We have to address male violence against women broadly not just lay it on the shoulders of one group.
Yes, that's would be men.

Katie Dolatowski is a man but it's relevant that he's also a transwoman because many people think transwomen are somehow not men.

It's not just about fear of attack though. It's about dignity and privacy too.

Also, the Ladies is one of the few places where women are able to go to talk to one another without men - perhaps to tell someone they are afraid, to ask if anyone has a spare tampon - all sorts of things.

A book that had a huge impact on me as a young woman was The Women's Room - not directly relevant, I know, but it was a huge success, and was an overtly feminist novel. It's just popped into my head, and I realise I hadn't considered the relevance of the title until now.

Thinking of my local supermarket toilets which are 4 -male group/female group/disabled/neutral family room they are down an ill lit corridor.

Actually far safer to use the family room. Would be far better if they had all been fronted on good view of the place generally

We are laying it on the shoulders of men.