Shamima Begum has appeal rejected

None of us know the full facts on which the authorities have based their decision, as details have been withheld for purposes of National Security. Nevertheless, even from a position of ignorance about the details of the case, a position which we all share whether we like it or not, my instinct is that as an allegedly intelligent yet horrendously misguided 15 year old when she made her decision, she should be brought back to UK to face legal action. Only when her case has been fully heard, and yes, some of it may be in camera, should a decision about her future be made.

Having watched the TV programme and listened to all the podcasts I have absolutely no doubt that she should be brought back to the UK. It is not about her guilt or innocence, it is, however, about our responsibility as a country. It seems that the MI5 report is very influential but it was the MI5 report regarding "weapons of mass destruction" that led us into the Iraq war, so that hardly recommends them as a source of correct information. I think the decision is utterly appalling.

I completely concur with what Dr Proudman says.
None of us are the child we were at 15 years old. For one thing the brain doesn’t mature until well into the 20s, which has implications for decision making, impulsivity and assessing long term consequences.

Sadly Shamima will continue to be open to continued radicalisation if she is left in this camp without hope of return here, and is therefore likely to pose more of a risk.

I agree that she should be brought back to face the British system.
She will have been deeply affected by her experiences whether or not she has had 1, 2 or several children primrose

I can barely believe the amount of cruel condemnation this poor high profile young woman has endured

I understand. They were all children, from difficult and conflicted/conflicting backgrounds, just like Shemima, that so many here say that she was 'not innocent'.

I worked with some of those children. Describing them as ‘not innocent’ doesn’t sit easily with me. We will have to disagree.

I did not in anyway 'dismiss' those children- I said they were children, some of them not 'innocent' at all, for all sorts of reasons- just like Shamima was a child, and also from a diificult and conflicting background.

Either she is a child and so are they. Or not. We can't 'pick and choose' who is a child, and who is not.

Fleurpepper, you state SB is like the girls groomed for sexual favours.
many of them knew what they were doing, were defo not virgins, and knew that they were being groomed, and given money and all sorts of goodies in exchange. That didn’t make them any less ‘children’ .

If you’re referring to the girls abused by grooming gangs made up of taxi drivers, take away staff etc, the majority of those girls came from backgrounds of neglect and abuse. Some were of low intelligence, so very easily exploited. They were given drugs and alcohol, not ‘goodies’. They were violently raped and assaulted. The Courts convicted their abusers.
If you’re referring to the Epstein young women, as with our Rochdale girls, the Courts found criminal acts had been committed against them.
I don’t want to de-rail this important discussion and I agree, the commonality is these were minors. But, to dismiss the children exploited by the grooming gangs in the way you did was imo wrong

Wyllow3

mantaray

Wavemark 2
Dr Charlotte Proudman, - a British barrister and Cambridge
academic
“Shamima Begum was a British child when she was groomed and radicalised by fundamentalists; she was trafficked; and she suffered gravely under ISIS. She was a child bride — and she watched her three children die. She is a British citizen and she should be brought to justice here.”
I agree with this. Also, I can think of many 15 year olds who have done very stupid and dangerous things. There are youngsters who are in youth offender units who have sold drugs, committed arson and caused grievously bodily harm. Are we going to take their passports away? No! we bring them to justice and if found guilty, imprison them . This way they can undergo treatment and be unable to cause any further harm to the community.

Strongly agree.

Another is strong agreement

Whether Shamima was an innocent child or a knowing evil teenager who went into it eyes wide open is largely irrelevant. I really wish she didn't have to come back here but she is British despite the government stripping her of her citizenship. She is our responsibility and no matter how distasteful I find her actions and attitudes it is right to bring her back here to face the music. There are risks that she might radicalise others, but it's a risk we have to take and do our best to mitigate.

I’m with you Primrose. She can play the pool naive girl when it suits her purposes. She was anything but.

choughdancer

Wyllow3

mantaray

Wavemark 2
Dr Charlotte Proudman, - a British barrister and Cambridge
academic
“Shamima Begum was a British child when she was groomed and radicalised by fundamentalists; she was trafficked; and she suffered gravely under ISIS. She was a child bride — and she watched her three children die. She is a British citizen and she should be brought to justice here.”
I agree with this. Also, I can think of many 15 year olds who have done very stupid and dangerous things. There are youngsters who are in youth offender units who have sold drugs, committed arson and caused grievously bodily harm. Are we going to take their passports away? No! we bring them to justice and if found guilty, imprison them . This way they can undergo treatment and be unable to cause any further harm to the community.

Strongly agree.

Me too.

Same here. She was a child. Same as the girls that were groomed for sexual favours. Many of them knew what they were doing, were defo not virgins, and knew that they were being groomed, and given money, and all sorts of goodies, in exchange. That didn't make them any less 'children'.

Wyllow3

mantaray

Wavemark 2
Dr Charlotte Proudman, - a British barrister and Cambridge
academic
“Shamima Begum was a British child when she was groomed and radicalised by fundamentalists; she was trafficked; and she suffered gravely under ISIS. She was a child bride — and she watched her three children die. She is a British citizen and she should be brought to justice here.”
I agree with this. Also, I can think of many 15 year olds who have done very stupid and dangerous things. There are youngsters who are in youth offender units who have sold drugs, committed arson and caused grievously bodily harm. Are we going to take their passports away? No! we bring them to justice and if found guilty, imprison them . This way they can undergo treatment and be unable to cause any further harm to the community.

Strongly agree.

Completely disagree.

She knew what she was doing alright. I remember seeing a former teacher from her school on TV. She said all 3 girls were very intelligent and very worldly wise.

I don’t know any 15 year old who could book and pay for a trip to Syria, could fool their parents and steal a sister’s passport.

Also we only have her word for it that she lost 3 babies. I have only ever seen one picture of her holding a blanket. Who knows if there was even a baby inside it?

We should never take her back.

Wyllow3

mantaray

Wavemark 2
Dr Charlotte Proudman, - a British barrister and Cambridge
academic
“Shamima Begum was a British child when she was groomed and radicalised by fundamentalists; she was trafficked; and she suffered gravely under ISIS. She was a child bride — and she watched her three children die. She is a British citizen and she should be brought to justice here.”
I agree with this. Also, I can think of many 15 year olds who have done very stupid and dangerous things. There are youngsters who are in youth offender units who have sold drugs, committed arson and caused grievously bodily harm. Are we going to take their passports away? No! we bring them to justice and if found guilty, imprison them . This way they can undergo treatment and be unable to cause any further harm to the community.

Strongly agree.

Me too.

mantaray

Wavemark 2
Dr Charlotte Proudman, - a British barrister and Cambridge
academic
“Shamima Begum was a British child when she was groomed and radicalised by fundamentalists; she was trafficked; and she suffered gravely under ISIS. She was a child bride — and she watched her three children die. She is a British citizen and she should be brought to justice here.”
I agree with this. Also, I can think of many 15 year olds who have done very stupid and dangerous things. There are youngsters who are in youth offender units who have sold drugs, committed arson and caused grievously bodily harm. Are we going to take their passports away? No! we bring them to justice and if found guilty, imprison them . This way they can undergo treatment and be unable to cause any further harm to the community.

Strongly agree.

Wavemark 2
Dr Charlotte Proudman, - a British barrister and Cambridge
academic
“Shamima Begum was a British child when she was groomed and radicalised by fundamentalists; she was trafficked; and she suffered gravely under ISIS. She was a child bride — and she watched her three children die. She is a British citizen and she should be brought to justice here.”
I agree with this. Also, I can think of many 15 year olds who have done very stupid and dangerous things. There are youngsters who are in youth offender units who have sold drugs, committed arson and caused grievously bodily harm. Are we going to take their passports away? No! we bring them to justice and if found guilty, imprison them . This way they can undergo treatment and be unable to cause any further harm to the community.

I think they are trying their best to run these camps with inadequate resources, people of all nationalities are there, refugees, known terrorists, just dumping grounds for people of many nations.

It's disgraceful, the nations involved need to sort this out.

Callistemon21

Jackiest

I think she is in Syria at the moment. If I was Syria I would put her on a plane fly her to Britain and tell Britain that she grew up in Britain she came from Britain she is your problem and you deal with it. Why should we dump our problems on the rest of the world.

I think the detention camps are being run by the Kurds.

I have no idea why the Kurdish people have been left with these problems when they have already suffered so much themselves at the hands of Sadam Hussein, Assad, Iran and Turkey.

I think the Kurds have been badly treated by everyone. Churchill authorised the use of poisoned gas against them in 1920. So much of the conflict in that area can be lain at the door of the UK and now we expect them to cope with people we think are a threat to the UK. Ironic really!

Difficult cases require the most careful judgment based on evidence. In this case the public does not have access to all the evidence but based on what is public on balance I agree with the decision.

Jackiest

I think she is in Syria at the moment. If I was Syria I would put her on a plane fly her to Britain and tell Britain that she grew up in Britain she came from Britain she is your problem and you deal with it. Why should we dump our problems on the rest of the world.

I think the detention camps are being run by the Kurds.

I have no idea why the Kurdish people have been left with these problems when they have already suffered so much themselves at the hands of Sadam Hussein, Assad, Iran and Turkey.

So how different was she to other children who were groomed, and also 'knew exactly' what they were doing, and often for money.

Shemima Begin was and is linked to a deadly terrorist organisation which continues to present a threat to this country.

Apart from the fact that she was only 15 the events she lived through are horrific. Did she know at that age exactly what she was getting herself into I very much doubt it.

She could also have been stopped at the Turkish border there is evidence that the man who smuggled her across was also acting as a spy for the Canadian government, but was smuggling women and children into Isis. Which makes me wonder if there are people who are still acting as double agents, and the real fear of the intelligence services is not the harm she presents to the British public, but the damage she could do to them. It's a murky world.

Grandma29

I agree with the decision.
She knew exactly what she was doing. No and, ifs or buts.

So how different was she to other children who were groomed, and also 'knew exactly' what they were doing, and often for money.

I think she is in Syria at the moment. If I was Syria I would put her on a plane fly her to Britain and tell Britain that she grew up in Britain she came from Britain she is your problem and you deal with it. Why should we dump our problems on the rest of the world.

I agree with the decision.
She knew exactly what she was doing. No and, ifs or buts.