Woman

Make, female. Man, woman. Just because someone with a male genitalia wants to identify as a woman, that’s up to him, just don’t come into the female dressing rooms or lavatories. Same with females they should not go into male facilities. Can’t see why anyone has a problem with it. We can’t change things to please everyone just the majority.

M0nica you are spot on. ?

thank you Doodledog I enjoy your posts too. I cant understand why it is such a hard slog. We all know that gender is shaped by society and my task along with thousands of others has been to throw away stereotypes which is a lot easier than keeping absurd stereotypes and cutting your body up to make them fit. You can change gender but your sex is flesh and blood and chromosomes and sperm and ova and hormones...its not a feeling. Let men be feminine, let your sexuality be whatever feels right, let women be liberated from permanent make-up and stiletto heels enormous bottoms and tiny waists and big boobs...just let both sexes be free to experience all the varieties of characteristics of being human. And accept the body you are born with, it's great, love it. change the rest. I guess we are still fighting for liberation.

M0nica

Trisher as gender is only a social construct, why bother with calling yourself anything at all. Let us go back to biological identity, you are born male or female. After that be whoever you want to be.

Precisely.

Trisher as gender is only a social construct, why bother with calling yourself anything at all. Let us go back to biological identity, you are born male or female. After that be whoever you want to be.

GagaJo

The thing is, many transwomen identify as butch lesbians before they move on to a trans identity. So there are plenty of trans lesbians around. Which is where for many lesbian communities trans and gay and intersect.

Yes, I think that you mean transmen.
While I was referring to natal men who identify as women (ie transwomen) but retain their male genitalia and want to use it to have sex with women.

I think gender is very important trisher, I think it's incredibly damaging to both men and women, so I think we should be challenging it as much as possible.

I think pretty much everyone is non binary trisher, unless they adhere to a very specific and rigid range of gender stereotypes. And I think not many people do that all the time.

Funny Galaxy how you ignore the difficult part of anything I say. But I will ask again. If as you say gender isn't important and can't be identified by appearance why does it matter?
People who believe that identify as non-binary, do you want everyone to do that?

You mean transmen I think.

The thing is, many transwomen identify as butch lesbians before they move on to a trans identity. So there are plenty of trans lesbians around. Which is where for many lesbian communities trans and gay and intersect.

So even if you didn't find them threatening, you'd laugh at them?

Unfortunately, that shows your true colours.

Men identifying as women who are sexually attracted to women and want to be called Lesbian! Having your cake and eating it springs to mind. If all the bad side of transwomen wasn’t so damaging to natal women it would be funny.

So the word woman to you includes men, it therefore means nothing.

I wont use my mum as an example of this because that's unfair, I have facial hair though. And I am wearing trousers. Your examples are stereotypes. Are you now saying that trousers are indicative of being a man?

Sorry GrannyGranby I must be thinking of another poster.

Mollygo

FC -non medically transitioned transwomen who are sexually attracted to women . . .
are men saying they’re attracted to women. That covers most of the population.
Why bother?

Yes - but they also identify as women. See Izzard, E (well they were identifying as a lesbian the last time I heard about them).

GranyGranby13
What do I think{hmm}? what ever floats their boat.{grin}

Well Galaxy if your mum wore trousers. allowed her facial hair to grow and used the gents she might well be assumed to be a man. The fact that you say don't know what presenting as a certain gender means is just sophistry. We all make assumptions about the gender of others everyday. And women are mostly people who present as female, which I assume your mum even in trousers does. Among those there will be and there always has been a few people you would probably class as biologically male. I accept them as women you don't. It's a choice. But I'd really like to know how you think you know which is a trans woman and which isn't. And as you say presenting as a gender can't be defined why does it matter? You seem to be arguing for non-binary.

FC -non medically transitioned transwomen who are sexually attracted to women . . .
are men saying they’re attracted to women. That covers most of the population.
Why bother?

The whole idea that people 'present as' a gender underpins the problem, IMO. 'Present as' what you like, but there is no way that you can change sex. Far better to change the way we (as a society) pigeonhole people into 'genders' that can be detected by presentation.

The idea that one set of presentational norms can be defined as 'male' and another 'female' is preposterous. Such norms are time and culture specific for a start, and nothing to do with natural inclination.

Galaxy

I am not insisting that trisher. People can call themselves what they like. If the word women includes men it is meaningless. In the way that if the word lesbian included women who are not attracted to women it would be meaningless.

Or, indeed, if the term ‘lesbian’ included non-medically transitioned transwomen who are sexually attracted to women…

grannygranby thank you. Your post describes exactly how I feel.

trisher

If you can explain to me Doodledoghow using the term people in an article- which as I explained earlier was probably done for good reason- necessitates any differentiation I would appreciate it.

It is not just in articles that terms are changing, as you know.

The language is being adapted to eradicate references to women/female people/those who give birth/mothers. Why not just use the terms 'women' and 'transwomen'/'transmen' when it is necessary to differentiate or find a way to circumnavigate the fact that there are differences between these groups?

What's next for members of the female sex? Handmaidens, Econowives, Marthas, Aunts, Unwomen? Ciswomen is already being used as a way of defining us as a sub-species of our own sex.

But what does that mean the gender they present as. I dont present gender. I wear clothes, sometimes I wear makeup sometimes I don't. My mum never wears makeup and always wears trousers. What gender is she presenting.