People who menstruate

WearingLadiesThings I hope you are not too upset by this thread. We sometimes forget that this is not an abstract argument but about real people's lives. Live your life safely and joyously knowing you are embraced by women who recognise feminism as a movement which accepts and supports all. Thank you for posting. I can't imagine what your life has been like. It was so brave of you to post on here.

I'm late here in responding to trisher's question about her young trans woman and the criminal justice system. When I lived / worked in a Probation hostel in the distant past, we had a number of similar people bailed to us, rather than imprisoned. I do hope that's what would happen with the young person trisher referred to.
I don't dismiss the huge pressures on people, especially young people who are confused/uncertain about their sexuality, especially if they have long wondered if they should have been born the other gender. What we can't dismiss is the number of young people seeking help who have an existing diagnosis of autism.

Thank you iam64. Unfortunately we are living through times that encourage a new way of thinking without considering the impact on existing laws and customs. It could well be the way forward but while every question or concern is minimised or dismissed, a large section of society will be expected to move over and shut up.
So while I may feel relaxed about Trisher's trans girl sharing the women's toilets, I may not feel quite so relaxed about Karen White in the next cubicle. The problem is, how do you tell the difference?

I think Wearingladiesthings has reminded me that this is not a matter of opinion (I am also guilty here) which maybe we should save for whether or not we like someone's dress. This is a matter of morality.

I think I will use the unfollow thread function to avoid further upset.

Thanks Petunia. While its true that we can't discriminate about the many because of the actions of a few, we do need to accept that some people present a danger to others. Dismissing genuine concerns, minimising or blaming poor safeguarding for the criminal actions of people doesn't help anyone either.

petunia I really don't understand how that helps or proves anything. We can't discriminate against the any for the actions of a few.

I can direct you to stories of hundreds of thousands abusive mums (like mine) and abusive grandmothers (like mine). Should I not love women as a result and allow them into my life? Because I know so many wonderful women and I seperate good people from abusive people. So does Safeguarding.

Good morning. What an interesting thread this is and how quickly the initial post deviates.

On the one hand there is the individual who genuinely feels that they are in the wrong body. One would generally feel some sympathy with this individual as their life must be very difficult. Trisher has highlighted this earlier.

On the other hand politics and activism has hijacked the trans movement and made trans activism into something aggressive and almost a cult. Biological women who protest are shouted down, no plat formed, attacked, threatened with the law and generally made to feel that they are the aggressor and a bigot.

Even some forms of feminism seem for have fallen under the spell. In my own town the Women's Centre proudly welcomes trans women into every aspect of the centres activities. I feel that women are loosing their way, loosing their privacy, loosing their necessary protections, loosing their ability to just say No.

Anyway, for those on Facebook there is a site which looks at crimes and incidents committed by trans women(biological men). The site is called “This never happens”. People are invited to send in reports from their local area of incidents. Recently a member collated all the incidents into one post. It is far to long to post here but if anyone is interested in the “rare” cases of biological women being attacked by transwomen, it is there to look at. Look for the post by Valentina Medici

Sobering information. Worth a look at if you have a few minutes.

You're a new poster wearingladiesthings? Welcome if you are. You write so emotively; I already feel as though I know you.

I'm so sorry Wearingladiesthings if I got anything wrong or didn't say enough.

I don't want to to make enemies or alienate people and I'm not used to feeling safe to engage in this type of discussion so I'm not very good at it.

I do want to send the message though that I accept you. I'm glad you're you.

I totally respect your need just to be ‘you’ WLT and for acceptance.

As far as I’m concerned, you have it. Even though you don’t need anyone’s blessing - and why should you?

?

Scuse the user name, I need a sense of humour in life. I wanted to have my say. I am a woman, a sister, a friend, a feminist and I once had the appearance of a man. I doubt anyone here knows what it feels like to be me. I know that I am me and I know I am a woman. I have been here, there and everywhere without anyone knowing because I am a woman. You won't ever look at me and see a man because I am a woman. Everywhere I go I get the same treatment as any other woman because I am a woman. All the nasty comments on here about me and the double standards and trans phobia don't change me being a woman. I've never hurt anyone and I am a woman. I'm going to blow this off now so I don't create a row and never look at it again because I am a woman. Don't ever say you accept the T in LGBTQ while you stand about saying nothing against people who don't want me as a woman.

Thankyou for that Chewbacca I too respect your views and I can see exactly where you are coming from. It's not a subject I would have even imagined discussing years ago, it is something I am continually learning about. One thing I would recommend is watching the BBC i-player series "Pose" it gives an insight into the culture of trans genderism and homosexuals in New York at a time when Aids was devastating the community. Night night!

You're absolutely right trisher, I would wish no harm to any one going through the physical, mental and emotional torture of transitioning from, or to, either sex. But I am, first and foremost, a grandmother to granddaughters, and a feminist and the rights to safety and protection for all women is my paramount concern. I vehemently feel that women have been expected to accommodate, acquiesce and compromise, for far too long, where their safety is at risk. And the risks have been, and continue to be, from men.

This discussion originally began about the ommision of the word women from feminine hygiene products and has morphed into transgender issues!
I genuinely appreciate having had this discussion with you trisher, you're a poster that, whilst I don't always agree with you, I very much respect you because your posts are well resesrched and well balanced and you never sink to name calling or cheap sideways jibes to get your opinions and views across.

Just honestly the message I'm getting.

I feel the issue of safe spaces and discrimination are seperate and this thread has reaffirmed that to me.

I can now see that unisex toilets may not be a great answer but I would rather risk occasional puddles than discrimination

Chewbacca I have consistently said that ay legislation on toilets and changing facilities is unenforcable unless you are going to have someone on every facility asking to see people they view as doubtful if they can see their genitals. Which is why it is irrelevant if there are single sex or unisex toilets, it doesn't matter, people will continue to choose the one they identify with.
I have also said that risk assessments in women's refuges are in place. They are not legally enforceable. To make them such would require legal changes.
In making a blanket restriction on what you describe as "biological men" you leave transwomen waiting for surgery to be abused. Whatever you might think of them I wouldn't have thought you would wish to see that.

Just to draw a line under the shared toilet issue, of course the women challenged the men. Often it was clear who the mucky man was and the next woman in would raise it. It’s rather presumptuous to put the blame back with the women.

Yes women are also perpetrators but in much smaller numbers and very often in cahoots or under the influence of men

But I thought you said that proper risk assessments were already in place and being enforced in jails and so there is no risk?
And how would you enforce any legislation in a public toilets? Especially if it was a uni sex toilets where both men and women were entitled to be?
I'd much prefer to hear that when a woman is in a vulnerable position, whether that be in prison, in a hostel, in changing rooms or toilets, biological men are not allowed access.

I am out , under no circumstances are you arguing in good faith starblaze.

So proper risk assessment legally enforceable for anyone who is seen as a threat Chewbacca and that includes the women who assault other women in prisons.

To refresh your memory Starblaze:

It's another area where women are expected to accommodate, mediate, not challenge but loose ourselves with the aim of keeping the peace. The peace that has silenced women for hundreds of years

With thanks to Iam64.

The Times, September 2019

Transgender prisoners are five times more likely to carry out sex attacks on inmates at
women’s jails than other prisoners are, official figures show.
Male prisoners who were transferred to women’s jails during gender reassignment and women inmates who are transitioning committed seven of the 124 sex attacks recorded between 2010 and 2018. They occurred at HMP Low Newton in Co Durham, Foston Hall in Derbyshire, Peterborough, Bronzefield in Middlesex and New Hall, West Yorkshire.

Can we have a quick recap so I know where we are?

Calling someone transphobic is an insult but it also doesn't exist as a term.

Being transphobic is fine even though it is an insult and/or doesn't exist as a term.

Some trans women are sexual predators but we are going to ignore that some women are also sexual predators. So we cannot have measures to keep everyone safe because female predators... Well under the rug with them!

Mysogyny is not going to be challenged directly by feminists but anyone who accepts trans women is not a feminist.

Reasonable measures cannot be put in place to prevent discrimination against trans women, not because it is impossible but because they are men anyway so there.

Also, ew puddles

Is that everything?

Parsley I haven't but there are probably differences in places depending on usage and cleaning schedule, shared toilets have been hit and miss for me in different places regardless of the sign on the door

It depends how many women you think should be assaulted to make men feel better. The attacks are by men and I am afraid transwomen are men. I dont know how many attacks have been by ginger men for example but they are excluded because of their sex.

We had one unisex toilet where I worked years ago.
As far as I know, no-one ever used it.