Girl Guide leader expelled from post.

Can I remind you that there are predatory lesbians about who could do the same thing and it is just about as likely

No it is not.
The vast majority of violent and sexual crimes are commited by men.

Yeah yeah #notallmen etc etc...

Your statement is just factually wrong. The risk rate is NOT anywhere near the same

Safeguarding also includes maintaining dignity. And that imcludes facilitating single sex changing/showering facilities.

Crime statistics do not support your view that predatory lesbians are a significant risk.
The same cannot be said for males.

There is also a concern that it is a huge mistake for boys to be encouraged throughout childhood to believe they are girls.
This leads them into wanting a future based on lifelong medication and, often, surgery to their perfectly healthy bodies.
If, instead, they were allowed to be boys with whatever preferences & interests they want, they could emerge as happy adult men.

(The same applies to girls identifying as boys and becoming women.)

notanan2 You have no idea of the risk rate. It has been said that any transwomen in the Guides would be thrown out- not true. That transwomen are easily identifiable-not true.
No one knows how many boys will identify as girls and want to join the Guides, it's all speculation.
I agree about the dignity which is why showers and cubicles should be individual and never communal, only those who want to should change in communal areas, and some girls do want to, some don't.

showers and cubicles should be individual and never communal

Absolutely.
Do you know if Guides are making sure of that?
How about sleeping arrangements?

I would hope FarNorth that the GG have allowed girls to change and shower individually and not communally if they wish but I don't know.
Asfor sleeping arrangements presumably these are usually communal but I suppose if a girl brought her own tent to a camp some attempt would be made to accommodate her.

The middle aged and plain headmistress at my old school ( 1945) disparaged girls' fears of being seen bathing "If you looked like me you would have some reason to be prudish".

@trisher I'm a lifelong Labour voter and Buddhist. Biological facts aren't hate speech. Wanting women and girls to have dignity and safety is not being a bigot.

No man can ever become a woman. Allowing Self ID would mean that any male would be allowed into our spaces. No hormones, no surgery and they wouldn't even have to wear traditionally female clothing.

Is this a woman? Because apparently he thinks he is. Would you be happy to have him in the cubicle next to you?

Btw, the person in DameJudy's post is not some obscure weirdo.
He is Alex Drummond who is an adviser to Stonewall on 'trans rights', also author of a book about his journey to being a transwoman.

I have no problem at all with how he looks, only with his claim to be a woman.

trisher, this extract from the guide leader's statement in the crowdfunder shows that your confidence in GirlGuiding providing single facilities for everyone is misplaced -

The issues are particularly important around safeguarding, where parents cannot know that their daughter is sharing changing or sleeping facilities with a person who has the physical attributes of a man or boy but says they identify as a woman or girl. Adult men who say they identify as women will be allowed to share sleeping facilities with and do intimate care for young girls.

Gonegirl asked if I/we really believe that GirlGuiding can't be trusted with the safety of girls in their care, and do I/we not believe this has all been considered using advice from experts, over time.

This extract from the crowdfunder statement gives the impression that I/we should not believe those things :

I was also worried that girls who identify as boys would be excluded from Guiding and that their policies said any child who was trans and who was doing something risky (contacting a stranger on the internet, taking medication that had not been prescribed for them) must have their confidences kept because leaders were never allowed to disclose that someone is trans. Following Helen Watts' and my and other leaders' pressure these particular policies have now been changed.

I actually don't know many girls (or indeed boys) who would let any youth leader do "intimate care" for them in any circumstances. And I have worked as a volunteer with young people. As I said there may be giirls who will share changing facilities and those who won't it's nothing to do with trans or anything else apart from personal preference. The same goes for sleeping facilities.
The fact that GG leaders have misinterpreted and not put in place proper safeguarding policies for anyone using the internet and accessing unsafe information is nothing to do with trans issues once again.
Posting pictures may make some people feel better but all it does is prove that they are still victims of patriarchy trying to be feminists but failing. Because true feminism recognises that gender is flexible and indeed can fluctuate in a person's lifetime and that accepting differences and supporting minorities is necessary to finally eliminate the restrictive and punitive measures which have been inflicted on people who were different. If you are interested in a wider viewpoint- Robin Dembroff-https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/may/19/valerie-jackson-trans-women-misogyny-feminism

Sorry link again www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/may/19/valerie-jackson-trans-women-misogyny-feminism

"Is this a woman? Because apparently he thinks he is. Would you be happy to have him in the cubicle next to you?"

No. It's not the beard it's the creepy grin, the heavy make-up, and the showy-off adornments. But I have trained myself to be able to use public toilets enough so I could tolerate his/her presence there.

'True feminism'?
Who says?

I don't see how that photo of 'GrrlAlex' has been posted. It has nothing to do with thread subject. He is obviously someone who believes himself to be 'gender fluid'. The Girl Guides would never take him on as a GG leader. And the young boys in question wouldn't look like that!

Why. Not how

Really, Gonegirl, you are setting a record for points being missed.

That Guardian article states that cruel treatment of transwomen is misogyny, because it is a result of patriarchy.

I agree it's a result of patriarchy but it is not misogyny - it is transphobia.
The cruel treatment of the transwomen mentioned came about because it was known that they were trans, not because anyone believed they were women and wished to treat them badly because of being women.

Of course, people should not be ill-treated because of being trans.
That doesn't mean they should be believed to have actually changed sex.

Ok. Tell me what the point of the photo was. Cos I sure as hell cant see it.

He is obviously someone who believes himself to be 'gender fluid'.
The Girl Guides would never take him on as a GG leader.

What gives you that idea, Gonegirl?

How can you tell what Alex 'obviously' is?

Are you sure that GirlGuiding would exclude a 'gender-fluid' person and do you think they should?

Alex describes himself as 'a transgender grrl in her forties. (my underlining)
If Alex is gender-fluid, perhaps he could arrange to be she/her whenever required by GirlGuiding?

Imho, the word 'gender' should be done away with.

Instead of gender identity, just have identity.
Present yourself however you like, not following the stereotypes expected for one sex or the other.

Physical sex always stays the same.
Identity can be whatever you want.

Just something about him/her FarNorth tells me he wouldn't get past the vetting stage.

How can you tell what Alex 'obviously' is?

The beard giving it away? ?

Ah yes, but in order to be inclusive, he/she may well get preference over more traditional looking women.