Girl Guide leader expelled from post.

'True feminism'?
Who says?

"Is this a woman? Because apparently he thinks he is. Would you be happy to have him in the cubicle next to you?"

No. It's not the beard it's the creepy grin, the heavy make-up, and the showy-off adornments. But I have trained myself to be able to use public toilets enough so I could tolerate his/her presence there.

Sorry link again www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/may/19/valerie-jackson-trans-women-misogyny-feminism

I actually don't know many girls (or indeed boys) who would let any youth leader do "intimate care" for them in any circumstances. And I have worked as a volunteer with young people. As I said there may be giirls who will share changing facilities and those who won't it's nothing to do with trans or anything else apart from personal preference. The same goes for sleeping facilities.
The fact that GG leaders have misinterpreted and not put in place proper safeguarding policies for anyone using the internet and accessing unsafe information is nothing to do with trans issues once again.
Posting pictures may make some people feel better but all it does is prove that they are still victims of patriarchy trying to be feminists but failing. Because true feminism recognises that gender is flexible and indeed can fluctuate in a person's lifetime and that accepting differences and supporting minorities is necessary to finally eliminate the restrictive and punitive measures which have been inflicted on people who were different. If you are interested in a wider viewpoint- Robin Dembroff-https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/may/19/valerie-jackson-trans-women-misogyny-feminism

Gonegirl asked if I/we really believe that GirlGuiding can't be trusted with the safety of girls in their care, and do I/we not believe this has all been considered using advice from experts, over time.

This extract from the crowdfunder statement gives the impression that I/we should not believe those things :

I was also worried that girls who identify as boys would be excluded from Guiding and that their policies said any child who was trans and who was doing something risky (contacting a stranger on the internet, taking medication that had not been prescribed for them) must have their confidences kept because leaders were never allowed to disclose that someone is trans. Following Helen Watts' and my and other leaders' pressure these particular policies have now been changed.

trisher, this extract from the guide leader's statement in the crowdfunder shows that your confidence in GirlGuiding providing single facilities for everyone is misplaced -

The issues are particularly important around safeguarding, where parents cannot know that their daughter is sharing changing or sleeping facilities with a person who has the physical attributes of a man or boy but says they identify as a woman or girl. Adult men who say they identify as women will be allowed to share sleeping facilities with and do intimate care for young girls.

Btw, the person in DameJudy's post is not some obscure weirdo.
He is Alex Drummond who is an adviser to Stonewall on 'trans rights', also author of a book about his journey to being a transwoman.

I have no problem at all with how he looks, only with his claim to be a woman.

@trisher I'm a lifelong Labour voter and Buddhist. Biological facts aren't hate speech. Wanting women and girls to have dignity and safety is not being a bigot.

No man can ever become a woman. Allowing Self ID would mean that any male would be allowed into our spaces. No hormones, no surgery and they wouldn't even have to wear traditionally female clothing.

Is this a woman? Because apparently he thinks he is. Would you be happy to have him in the cubicle next to you?

The middle aged and plain headmistress at my old school ( 1945) disparaged girls' fears of being seen bathing "If you looked like me you would have some reason to be prudish".

I would hope FarNorth that the GG have allowed girls to change and shower individually and not communally if they wish but I don't know.
Asfor sleeping arrangements presumably these are usually communal but I suppose if a girl brought her own tent to a camp some attempt would be made to accommodate her.

showers and cubicles should be individual and never communal

Absolutely.
Do you know if Guides are making sure of that?
How about sleeping arrangements?

notanan2 You have no idea of the risk rate. It has been said that any transwomen in the Guides would be thrown out- not true. That transwomen are easily identifiable-not true.
No one knows how many boys will identify as girls and want to join the Guides, it's all speculation.
I agree about the dignity which is why showers and cubicles should be individual and never communal, only those who want to should change in communal areas, and some girls do want to, some don't.

Crime statistics do not support your view that predatory lesbians are a significant risk.
The same cannot be said for males.

There is also a concern that it is a huge mistake for boys to be encouraged throughout childhood to believe they are girls.
This leads them into wanting a future based on lifelong medication and, often, surgery to their perfectly healthy bodies.
If, instead, they were allowed to be boys with whatever preferences & interests they want, they could emerge as happy adult men.

(The same applies to girls identifying as boys and becoming women.)

Safeguarding also includes maintaining dignity. And that imcludes facilitating single sex changing/showering facilities.

Can I remind you that there are predatory lesbians about who could do the same thing and it is just about as likely

No it is not.
The vast majority of violent and sexual crimes are commited by men.

Yeah yeah #notallmen etc etc...

Your statement is just factually wrong. The risk rate is NOT anywhere near the same

So it's about a small number of people who may take advantage to harm girls? Can I remind you that there are predatory lesbians about who could do the same thing and it is just about as likely. Safeguarding is an issue taken seriously by everyone who deals with children whatever their gender and they will as usual protect children. This is a non-event which is providing fuel for the voices of hate and prejudice.

Transexual adults with a GRC may have been involved in Guiding.
Not men or boys who simply 'identify as female'.

FarNorth if that is the case then, as transexuals have always existed and they have been changing gender physically for a long time so they may have been involved in Girl Guiding for ages, it has always been mixed sex. Nothing, except for the wording, has changed. Oh and a few reactionary people starting to realise they can hitch their prejudices onto feminism.

Another related topic is that of the huge increase in numbers of children 'identifying' as the opposite sex.
The numbers of 'trans-identified' adults are increasing too.
That makes the risk much greater than previously.

(Not that all trans people are predators - I'm sure you can figure it out for yourself.)

The topic of this thread - GirlGuiding's policy on trans people - is related to the topic of sexual harassment & assault in mixed-sex situations.

GirlGuiding should stop claiming to be single-sex as it is now, in fact, mixed-sex.

Then parents and girls would be aware of the true situation.

I see as usual the debate is distracting from the real issue by side tracking into reports of rape and violence. Let's look at the reality. Trans people have existed probably as long as people have. They are everywhere. And the belief that you can tell just by looking at them is ridiculous. My cousin is 6 feet tall, my friend's daughter takes size 8 shoes both are women, but according to DameJudyClench they look like men! It's somthing right wingers, who don't even recognise patriachy when they see it, are trying to pretend is feminism. It isn't. It is as usual a power play of the patriachy trying to stigmatise and label a minority group because that is what patriachy does. Well done Girl Guides for not conforming.

There was a story recently about a school having to install CCTV in the unisex loos. Here's a thought. Why not have single sex loos.....

Heartbreaking and shocking.

From that link :
"The parents of a six-year-old girl who was sexually assaulted by classmates have called for a record to be set up showing all sex abuse between children.

Bella - not her real name - was abused by two boys at her London school almost every playtime for six weeks."

And it had been ignored by teachers.
Words fail me.

This one too @FarNorth absolutely heartbreaking

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-49084906?intlink_from_url=https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education&link_location=live-reporting-story