Veganism, genuine questions.

A vegan gardening book was published recently. The author was interviewed about it and asked what he did about slugs and snails.

He said that they were removed from the vegetable patch and put elsewhere, so far so good, but then he said he threw them on the lawn where they could be caught and eaten by birds, as it was part of life's natural cycle.

At which point, he lost me, because slugs and snails do not usually walk across lawns in broad daylight, inviting predators. To me, what he was doing was the equivalent of putting christians in the Colosseum and setting wild animals on them, there is nowhere to hide.

If birds eating slugs and snails is the natural cycle quite acceptable to vegans, why is not humans being omnivores, the earliest people were hunter/gatherers not acceptable.

To comment on the OP:
I am struggling to understand the anti wool thing, as sheep don't die to provide it, in fact they benefit from providing it, i.e. being shorn.
I think being shorn, mulesing etc are only part of the issue. some people are anti-exploitation of animals for human benifit altogether, but there are plenty of stories of shearers in Austrailia using drugs - mainly speed - to keep up with the pace... there is video footage of mistreatment
youtu.be/deHNomts8bo and there have finally, in 2017 been some prosecutions...
www.abc.net.au/news/rural/2017-03-31/sheep-shearers-sentenced-animal-cruelty-horsham/8404874
Obviously, there are good and bad people in ALL industries but if you do want to know why, this is a part of it.

Like crystaltipps, I think we can all do a bit more to be kinder to the planet in general, and the other animals we share it with. Food bank situations aside, we can eat a bit less, buy better quality meat, buy local, buy from smaller suppliers, maybe grow some veg ourselves and choose clothes wisely. All these will help.
OK, sometimes we are exhausted and just get on with life in our own haphazard way, but if everyone took a few small steps and made incremental changes it can only be for the good.

This thread is getting out of hand, let people do what they want, be it vegetarian or vegan or we meat eaters, we cant change each other, we all have different points of view, can we not get on with life without accusing everyone for something we dont agree with.
End of rant.
Waiting to be beheaded!

Fake meat is really aimed at meat eaters who want to cut down, I don’t think anyone who dislikes meat for whatever reason would want to eat it. It’s all processed food And not particularly healthy.

Yes there are aggressive vegans out there, same as there are aggressive meat eaters who demonise vegans. Abbatoirs are now huge industrial operations dispatching hundreds of thousands of animals per week, the small local ones have mostly been closed. The internet is awash with horrible images and sickening practices from these places, but I’ve yet to read of any prosecutions or any of them being shut down.

I’m vegetarian, the thing I don’t understand is why people then want to eat ‘fake’ meat. I don’t eat it prefer meals of vegetables, pulses etc. Perhaps someone can explain this to mean.

Isn't that what has happened to our appendix?
Did I read somewhere that it used to be much bigger, and was for helping to digest large quantities of meat?

Woolly mammoth would have been quite large and take some digesting MissA.

Of course vegans can see other points of view
crystaltipps you may do so and be very reasonable in your views but some vegans are zealous and have even been intimidating shoppers in supermarkets.

crystaltips I wasn't suggesting that you were demonizing people yourself. But there are a few staunch vegetarians/vegans who are very confrontational and aggressive about their beliefs. It doesn't actually work - it just makes the people they criticise angry and defensive, building a barrier that prevents them from even considering another point of view.

I admit I haven't read the whole thread but think I've got the gist.
A vegetarian myself but not a vegan, Ofcourse I hate cruelty to animals.
I wish people would work harder to expose the bad practices and not just wail in horror and avoid animals altogether.
Things you can do for a start: only eat meat from a known source, preferably accredited organic, grass fed etc.
Ask questions: The sales girl at H&M became quite heated when I asked her the origin of the clothes I was buying.
Be prepared to pay a bit more for things.
Well done for raising the issues because the more people who know about the terrible practices, the more likely these will stop. Rather like the abolition of Slavery though there will always be exceptions. Vigilance is needed.

We should be working for more checks, and for severe penalties on sadism. As well as being better for animal welfare, those who are cruel to animals often go on to harm humans. Apart from animal welfare, coming to the notice of authority for their attitude to animals could prevent some human unhappiness or even death, too.

Small local slaughterhouses can be more humane than large ones. The one we used to take sheep to was staffed by ex-stockmen, who treated them gently (incidentally producing better meat because they were not stressed) but then new regulations about the physical environment etc meant that they were not viable commercially and closed down. The alternative was a longer journey to a bigger establishment and more impersonal handling.

Slaughterhouses don’t have that many checks unfortunately. You’d have to be a bit brutalised by nature of the work. Not the same as working in childcare.

Just because you are a vegan doesn’t make you a terrorist btw.

Re thugs working in abbatoirs - you also get child abusers working in nurseries, but we don't stop using nurseries as a result of knowing this - we have rules and checks and they are applied and followed or the nurseries are in trouble

David I suspect the planet is ready to reduce the population itself. A pandemic is long overdue.

I have seen videos of the way some shearers treat the sheep and it was revolting. You sometimes get the same kind of thugs working in slaughter houses.

I can assure all of you if you are a livestock farmer the Vegan terriorists are making every effort to demonize them.

There is only one threat to the planet and that is population growth, reduce the population and all the other problems disappear. It could be done in a couple of generations if there was the political will, that should be the aim not carbon targets.

I don't feel demonised. (Only slightly by myself, for still eating meat)

Anyone who is interested in the wool
Argument www.bitesizevegan.org/bite-size-vegan-nuggets/is-wool-vegan-is-it-humane/

No one has “demonised others” on here for eating meat. I have just stated I don’t eat animals as a choice for environmental reasons and because I have that choice. I understand why people eat foods that are familiar to them, plastic trays of meat in the supermarket bear little resemblance to an animal. I have been veggie for so long I don’t think of animals as food. My canine teeth come in great use for eating crunchy foods which aren’t meat just like the many mammals which don’t eat meat and also have canines ( eg gorillas) ( how many humans actually kill meat with their teeth I wonder). It’s impossible to exclude all animal products from most people’s lives, but not eating them is a choice some people make and why get all aggressive and criticise them for it.

I think all we can do Eloethan is to minimise the damage we do.

Synthetic materials are made from petro-chemicals. Think of all those synthetic fibers being shed into grey water each time they are washed. Cotton production is, as you say, hugely damaging. Our ancient ancestors had the right idea, using the whole animal for food, clothing, tools etc etc.

I eat a plant-based diet, no meat or fish but it's a dietary choice not a sentimental one. I buy organic wherever possible but am mindful that the soil those fruits and vegetables grew in will have been enriched with animal manure and those animals will have died to provide meat, skins, fleeces and other by-products.

I do, to some extent, agree with the idea that the "quality" of life is just as important, if not more important, than the "quantity" of life.

However, since many people believe that the world is becoming dangerously over-populated and stripped of resources, this argument could be used to dispose humanely of human beings. We are quite happy to apply the concept to other animals but I wonder how many people would feel comfortable in applying it to themselves or their families.

I have a mainly vegetarian diet but do occasionally lapse. I very much admire true vegetarians, and vegans especially. It is a huge undertaking to rid your life completely of any animal products. Whilst I can understand why vegetarians and vegans feel so strongly that using animals is a cruel and inefficient way of providing food, I think being hyper-critical of others who do not share their beliefs does not assist their cause but merely alienates people.

The thing is to do what your conscience is happy with.
If that means avoiding animal products as far as is practicable, or seeing them as a source of good food then we're all free to live how we see fit.

I don't condone cruelty to animals and I hope that the sorts of examples of cruelty quoted here are rare. Unfortunately, there are a few people who, for whatever reason, seem not to care that they are hurting animals - human or otherwise.

The problem I have is: what are we going to wear?

Recently a TV programme explained that the production of cotton is one of the most environmentally damaging processes which has decimated large areas of some countries. Now we are being discouraged from wearing wool.

What are we to wear then? Surely the production of synthetic materials is equally damaging?

I believe the vegan concept is selective because it's impossible to live in 21C society without consuming animal products in one way or another.

Animal products are in almost everything we use. Stearic acid derived from animal tallow is used as a coolant in our electronic devices and in everyday plastic items as a slip agent. Replacing animal-derived stearic acid with palm-oil based stearic acid contributes to the destruction of wildlife habitats.

Sugar is often filtered through bone charcoal.

Cotton fabric beloved of vegans is the most energy-inefficient and toxic of all fabric to produce polluting water courses and killing marine life. Few realise that a by-product of the cotton industry is cotton-seed waste ... which is fed to animals to fatten them for meat.

As far as I am aware, few sheep are kept only for their wool. There's little money in fleece. Environmentally, it makes more sense to wear wool. At least the whole animal is being put to use.