Advice re childcare arrangements with grandchildren

Dear DorothyL, I have been following this thread with interest because my situation as a young mother was quite similar to that of your daughter, and I was very dependent on my parents for help when our second child was born. My then husband 'worked away' and was little support, financially or otherwise. I am very ashamed to say that I took their help entirely for granted because I knew how much they loved their grandchildren, but I did go back to work after two years and weaned myself off total dependence.

I think your friends and family are critical because they can see the effect this extended childcare (I include your daughter ) is having on you physically and financially. Your daughter may need your emotional support but seems to be in a sound financial position; she should at the very least be paying for all the food and the petrol they consume, plus offering to fund a cleaner.

I agree with other posters that your kindness and support, given for the best reasons, has enabled her to become totally dependent on you, and she shows little desire to change. Breastfeeding a baby doesn't prevent you from meeting up with other young mums during the day, particularly if one child is at school and she needs to develop a friendship network.

You have to talk to her and make her see what toll her very comfortable lifestyle is taking on you, and if she won't/can't see, then you need to gently withdraw some of the support you are giving to enable you to assert more control over your business and life.
Both she and her husband, for whatever reasons, are evading their responsibilities as parents, at your expense.

Dorothy This is clearly a challenging, complicated and difficult situation for you. Now you have given more information it is clear that your SIL is a big part of the problems that are arising.He is earning lots of money which is probably in a demanding and stressful high powered job of some sort. It sounds like he has the view that he therefore deserves "his time" etc etc. (its an old fashioned approach /view but I know a few high earning stressed men who have it, probably of the same generation as your SIL!)
His wife is struggling for whatever reason. Her parents are helping out with the consequences of that. He therefore has no consequences to his view/approach impacting on him. Yes he is taking you for granted; yes he is enjoying the status quo!
Unless I missed it you have not really referred to any discussion taking place with your SIL with this problem? Is there a reason for that? Are you worried about consequences of a discussion for your DD; for you; for the family? The fact that he has abdicated day to day responsibility; has not considered financial impact on you; has not considered impact of his decisions on his wife/family; is earning large amounts of money , probably stressfully; etc etc ...but noone seems to think he should be helping to solve the significant issues you have described ...does not particularly look well on him and might suggest much deeper issues in the relationships with him and in his behaviour.
I don't expect you or need you to give more details here ...but if I am on the right track, then I think the focus for all of you needs to be on him, any issues in his behaviour, involving him or dealing with whatever those issues are.

OP I feel for your dilemma. I hardly noticed how the support I willingly gave to a DGC was increasing until it was taking over my time and energy. Like you I was 'just about managing' (JAM) financially but also found myself paying for some items. I just wanted to make things right for them.

I have read the thread but am wondering whether I've got your situation clear. If SiL is only away Monday-Friday 2 weeks out of 4 do you not have 2 weeks without your DD and GC? If so can you not keep your business going and get to socialise in those 2 weeks? Maybe I've misunderstood.

As others have said, all too soon the GC are off to school and everything changes. Now the child I gave my time and energy to is older I really miss seeing them so much. We were very close, remain so but see each other much less now, I miss them!

Definitely time to negotiate some boundaries, it would seem. Your business is a good enough reason for you to be able to explain why you need to do less childcare, so you can earn more. Working from home can’t be easy, with small children around, so you need your own days free of childcare. Surely when it is explained your DD will understand. She possibly has no idea that finances are tricky. It may also help to change the dynamics in her family set up, if her husband can see that you are in need of your own lives.

I don’t mean this at all critically but, by helping so much, you’ve made your daughter dependent on you and unless you make some changes soon I can’t see that changing. You’re also enabling your SIL to distance himself from his family by providing much of the support (and I don’t necessarily mean physical support) he should be providing.

I think there may be an element here of you initially feeling that it was better to keep your daughter and children close and protected so that didn’t have to worry about what was happening (or not happening) while she was on her own in her own home. If that’s the case, and apologies if it’s not, I can completely empathise with it having been in a similar situation myself. But help which is only intended to be temporary or limited in scope has a tendency to expand or take roots if the person being supported shows no signs of wanting to pick up the reins again herself.

I don’t know whether depression is an issue you are having to consider a different so, that does make things more tricky.

I agree with those other posters who gave suggested a gradual withdrawal from support. Not entirely of course, I don’t imagine you’d be happy to do that but there’s no real reason (as far as I know) for your daughter to stay overnight at your house so much. So perhaps initially suggest one night at home per week perhaps tagged on to the weekends when SIL is at home and see how that goes. Let your daughter take responsibility for her own day to day shopping, appointments etc.. whether she’s at home or staying with you. And I’m not sure why she needs help to do the school run but appreciate that there might be good reasons which you can’t go into.

My husband also worked away 2 weeks out of 4 when my children were small because he earned more money that way and we desperately needed it. I was in a new area with no friends and no family nearby but I had to cope because there was no one else. Again, I’m not being critical of your daughter because I realise that people’s capacity for coping varies enormously.

Whatever you decide to do, I wish you the best of luck. Families are not easy.

May I suggest you cut back, say, one day a week initially? As much as you love your family, you do have a right to a life of your own and they will continue the status quo all the time you let them. I quite understand what you mean by the tiring nature of it. I find it exhausting and painful to haul my lump of a Grandson around.

DorothyL I think it is a fact that our DC don't realise (or don't want to realise) just how tired we can get as we get older - and you are trying to run a business too.
You are doing more than most grandparents and in fact subsidising them too by trying to run your business.

Perhaps it is time for you and your DH to have a serious talk then work out just how much time and energy you can offer - or could you ease back on your business if DD and SIL offered more financial help?

Stay with us DorothyL if it helps you. Thanks for sharing as much as you have done, it helps to clarify things. Are you all ex pats or are you living in someone’s home country? If your dd &sil are well off then they should be encouraged to help your financial situation and maybe you have to try hard to explain how hard it is for you. Maybe they really don’t understand. Sending ? and hugs. Don’t know how you can change sil’s behaviour without it causing more problems!

Thanks again everybody. There is a lot to think about here. The situation is complicated! I can't go into full details but will share the following:

-We live abroad, in a rural isolated place. DD is on PTA and tries to be involved with local mums, but locals here have very different lifestyle/family dynamic - its not as easy as UK for social mixing, and we are all a drive from any neighbours etc.
-DD is left very isolated, despite ongoing best efforts to mix, partly because she can only pop out briefly Mon-Fri because of kids routine, partly because all her w/e and hol time is reserved for SIL.
-When new baby was born last year, SIL chose to switch to a job with more travelling - he's now away from home Mon-Fri, 2 weeks out of 4.
-SIL is very much a weekend/holiday dad (and husband). Not at all involved in day to day family life or household business, even when home. When he's home they go out for meals, go for trips, have his friends come to stay from UK etc.
-We share day to day childcare with DD - school, medical appts, shopping etc, because if we didn't, she would be alone with it, and because as i said, we love them all and enjoy being togther.
-SIL earns very well. They are very well off.
We are not, and I do feel he takes advantage by not at least ensuring we have shopping and petrol and an occasional something as a thank you (having said that, DD paid for a big shop with me this week, but it was of course for them all, as staying here this week, and every other week).
-Situation further complicated by my DH himself being childless. He is happy to spend 24 hours a day with GC, whilst in all honesty I would prefer a little more time for me/us.

Ah well, it is a bit of a conundrum. I try to insist on time for me and DH, but am so tired from just having the GC around so much. DD does most of the work, but I find just playing with them, carrying them, picking up, putting down, clearing up after them etc, 5 days a week, very tiring. Often when they go all I have energy for is a big house clean and the business work, not for leisure pursuits hobbies or social life.

I wish SIL was a hands on dad, and a more involved caring partner to DD, or that DD was a tougher cookie and would tell him to get his finger out when he’s home! But neither is the case.
Our situation evolved when DD had first child, no help or support with childcare at all from SIL, home or not. We stepped in as she needed us.
We hoped by demonstrating loving childcare it would be good example for him and for her and would make him pull his bootstraps up, but he just used us, I think.
We tried to back out a bit when we realised that, but DD got pregnant again and lost baby after miscarriage - he was no support before or after. We had no choice but to help as she could not manage.
Then she had 2nd baby and again, he just abdicated responsibility. Again, we really felt we had no choice but to help.
And now its sort of custom, that we share childcare/help raise the GC, but with no financial or other overt recognition of that fact.
So yes, although I love DD and GC, and love spending lots and lots of time with them, I'm overstretched and not all that happy with the extent of arrangements and the lack of acknowledgment, financial or otherwise, of the level of our input.

There - now I'm sure I've said too much. Thank you for listening everyone!

Thank you so much Orelse for your helpful and supportive feedback.

Sensible post M0nica, especially re returning to their own home for the night.

spending time together as a large extended family works well for all of us - nice for DD to have company and a break from being just mum/kids, nice for kids to have more family around, nice for us to hang out with them all.
I can understand that Dorothy but you are saying that you find it all too much and can't devote sufficient time to your own business and possibly that your DD and SIL are taking advantage of you financially.

Firstly, ignore disapproving remarks or looks from well-meaning friends, although, if you are getting stressed, they will be concerned for your welfare.

Work out how much time you need for yourselves to concentrate on your business and have a chat to your DD so that she know how much time you have to be able to devote to her and the children.

If your SIL is working there is no need for them to expect you to pay for food etc, petrol on school runs and they should be adult enough to realise this and pay their fair share.

I probably wouldn't expect to be paid for child-care although I do know that some grandparents have to do that as they cannot manage otherwise.

You need to talk to them both.

I am not sure that saying of childcare whatever you are happy with is wise advice.

Often it can lead to grandparents getting too deeply involved in their grandchildren's lives and they are utterly devastated if the arrangement comes to an end - and we have many threads from such devastated grandparents on GN.

Other times, although the grandparents, especially grandmothers, say how much they love it, are totally devoted to their grandchildren, we get posts listing the tensions that do actually exist in the relationship - such as in this case.

I think this problem needs to be treated carefully because the relationship between parents and daughter is far too close and I would say could eventually affect their daughter's marriage. You will need to unwind slowly. Start by gradually ending the overnight stays. Spend the days together, but make sure your DD returns home, on her own, with her children so that they all sleep in their own house every night.

This will give you your evenings to yourself and some breathing space. When this overnight in their own home pattern is well embedded, begin suggesting to your daughter that she delays coming over in the morning until, say 11 or 12 o'clock to give you some time to work on your business. Gradually get it down to seeing her every day, but for a period that doesn't encompass more than one meal a day.

It will be much better for your grandchildren, who must be beginning to see your home as being their main home, just going to the 'other home', when their father is around at weekends, a kind of holiday home with a 'holiday' father. Eventually your daughter will instinctively think the same, because your home is the home she grew up in and her husband and her family home will become peripheral in her life and possibly an extra complication when she is so comfortable with you.

Do you want them living with you full time if your current arrangements contribute to the breakdown of their marriage?

Ooh, that would be far too much childcare for me! But, of course, whatever you're happy with. Money is a difficult subject to broach - but, especially when they are all spending 5 days a week with you (and, as you say, you're not well-off) I think you will have to bite the bullet and mention it.
Somebody earlier said that your daughter is 'taking the piss'. I think she is. But on her behalf, she may not realise that you are finding it hard.
You say that you are trying to run a business from home. But your childcare arrangements would give you little time to devote to this - and you and your husband need your own lives!
If I were you, I would step back a bit. Decide how many days a week you would like to yourselves, and then say to your daughter, 'Sorry, we can't have the children today because .....'
(Your friends are disapproving because they care for you, and can see that you are doing too much!)
Think about it!
Good luck!

I’ve seen a similar scenario with a family member and it ended badly. There was an unhealthy, though not immediately obvious, element of control of the lives of the DD & GC. I would say - spend as much time with your GC while you can, but beware of making yourself indispensable so that if it all goes pear-shaped you’ll still have your own life to live and your livelihood too!

Again why cant she ask for contribution the dd has a husband working away
OP Give her a list of things needed if it wasnt a problem.you would not have put a post up ...your daughter is taking the piss if she cant see and read your body language why must you be expected to put up with this akward situation

I posted very early on, so now we know a little more I can see that you have a problem in changing things very much at present but I still think some kind of set routine would help you all, especially with the business side of things. Other peoples opinions outside the family can be ignored but I wonder if they are concerned about you in a friendly way.

Totally understand you can’t and don’t want to do into details about your dd and of course any parent supports their ac unconditionally. Good on you op for helping her and your grandchildren but clearly it’s not all rosy.

I think you said one of the children is school age? Is your dd involved in the school life? PTA? Friends?

I think because you are always there to catch and protect her you are maybe preventing her from having to branch out?? Honestly I totally understand why you are so involved but could you have a plan of action to withdraw gradually? Maybe she does 1/2 days by herself with the kids?

And what’s going on with her dh? He was obviousiy home enough to create the new baby? Does he know she’s struggling?

Totally not criticising you at all op.

Hi have been thinking about your issues
1 . You " borrow " your GC s as they grow up so quickly , so make the most of these pre school years - enjoy them your way and ignore friends disapproval .- they are missing out on something wonderful
2. Have some structure to your childminding ( both Daughter & GC) so that all of you have breathing space.
3 . Nana rose advice was sound . It is difficult to ask for money , but explain that you need to keep the income going through your home business and propose hours ( permanently earmarked ) for your daughter to be independent as you conduct business. Does your daughter want to help you out a bit in your business ? She might like the distraction too.
4 , Food shop together then you don't have to ask for a contribution as you can pop stuff in your basket and say ". I will treat you to these "
5 Add on some " ME " time to your planning ; as you need time to yourself too so that you don't get burned out
6 Don't forget that within 3 years the GC will be at school and pre- school and everything will be easier.
Lastly - I have been there - friends disapproving too- , but with structure and Talking Talking, Talking , everything has turned out well and now All of the GC (4) are at school and I wouldn't have changed anything for the world .
Be structured , happy and not exhausted . Good luck you are lovely grandparents ?

Thank you everyone who has posted here. I really appreciate your comments and the time and thought taken. I am thinking about all the points raised, really helpful.

GabriellaG54 You are right, we are not food bank poor, or homeless etc, many people are of course much worse off than us, so "very poor" is probably a poor choice of words. Chronically strapped for cash/permanently struggling/worried about paying the bills is a more accurate description.

Jalima1108 I think I have replied re this but can't find my reply, so just in case am doing so again.
There are complex and real reasons why DD needs extra support. I am afraid I cannot go into them in public here. However I can say that we all live in isolated countryside, and that spending time together as a large extended family works well for all of us - nice for DD to have company and a break from being just mum/kids, nice for kids to have more family around, nice for us to hang out with them all.

Hi Mycatisahacker - I did explain in a reply above (somewhere) that there are complex and real reasons why my DD struggles to manage alone, which I am sorry I cannot go into in public here.
I can though say that because we live in an isolated country spot and DD is physically alone with the children very much of the time it is actually just nice for us all to spend time together. Nice for DD to have company and a bit of help and a chance to take "me time" away from the kids, nice for the kids not to be only with mum all the time, and to enjoy a larger family environment, and nice for us to be with the grandkids and with DD - we all get on very well together.

Doversole - "DH appears to have absolved responsibility for bringing up the children on a day to day basis at least."
Yes, absolutely. I am afraid I cannot go into this in public here, but yes.

Thank you BuffyBee for taking the time to comment so helpfully.