Just an old wive's tale?

Sadly - an I don't know why - I didn't see it Stansgran.

This is the most beautiful story The Indian sanitary pad revolutionary about conquering the repercussions of old wives tales.

? Omitted

Does anyone remember The Red Tent by Anita Diamant I think. It was a refuge for menstruating and post natal women in the tribe.

I'm afraid I have always thought of Churching rather as you do Swanny and see it as an archaic practice that was one of the methods used by the church to keep women in their second-class place and it was certainly part of the C of E tradition.

Although the church would no doubt say this was not an act of purification, women for centuries had been led to believe it was and that they could not attend Communion again until they had been churched. Historically this was certainly what they would think it meant as their souls were at risk (not being able to attend Communion) until they had been churched. The purification angle came, I believe, because much of the liturgy of the Roman Catholic church and subsequently the C of E was based on Jewish religious practices and I believe there is or was a purification service for Jewish women who had given birth.

Some of you seem to be questioning my comments about churching so I would refer you to this article in Church Times in March 2012.

The conversation I had with other women who had to be 'purified' took place in the late sixties, long before the plain 1980 service of thanksgiving for the birth of a child. And Annie, these were all Church of England services too, with the emphasis at the time on purification, not thanksgiving.

By the way Annie, I don't know why you questioned which century my mother was from but, just so you know, she was born just a few years after WW1 ended

In the 60's we chose our pram and the shop reserved it without payment and held it until after our daughter was born.Hubby collected it the day after she was born. The
shop advised us it would be distressing having a pram in the house should the worst happen .Not sure if it was an Old Wive's Tale or just their excellent policy.

rosesarered so sad to hear that. Never goes away, does it?

My mum bought our very traditional pram after DS1 arrived. There wasn't a lot of room in our small rented cottage, but we managed. We still had it for DS2 who was quite poorly and had nine days in SCBU but it never occurred to me that having the pram waiting for him could bring bad luck.

Sadly we bought the pram before the baby, it was in the hall when our baby was born ( stillborn) and then had to be returned to the shop.
So, I would say no, don't buy the pram before the baby arrives, it can be bought the next day, you won't need it immediately.

X posts.

Some things do come full circle in a way though - the concept of no-ne visiting inside the house until the mother was churched would have focused mother and baby on getting to know one another and establishing their routine. This is echoed in one modern idea of no-one but the mother doing anything for the baby so that they bond well.

Just a thought. Based on many posts I have read from members feeling "excluded" after the arrival of a grandchild.
How many young parents insist on a GP /rellie free period after a birth these days - only now it is called "bonding".

Plus ça change...etc etc.

Or each to their own!

No conceding by me btw and it was just a suggestion by DM as I presume it had been a tradition going way back in the family

All traditions, and that includes church services, evolve over time. Once marriage was seen as the giving of a woman to a man for the procreation of children. The woman was as much the chattel of the man as his cow or chickens.

Our view of marriage is entirely different now, we see it as two independent adults being so attached and sure of each other that they wish to publicly pledge allegiance to each other. Yes, a few old fashioned traditions remain, the father giving the bride a way and for a few (see the relevant thread) the groom asking the bride's father for permission.

It is the same with churching. It did start as a cleansing ceremony but evolved to be a thanksgiving for the safe arrival of a child and the mother's recovery from the pains of child birth at a time when the birth of a child was fraught with dangers for both and death or permanent health problems were not unusual. I suspect one of the reasons it has died out is that nowadays we so expect childbirth to be safe for both mother and child,that the need to be thankful that all has gone well doesn't occur to most people.

The same as mine by the sounds of it
Although it was my DF who was from the 1800s but he wouldn't have had a clue about it!

Which century was Swannys mother from?

Churching isn't about the woman being unclean. Although based on the Jewish purification of Mary after the birth of Jesus, the Christian Church does not teach that women are unclean after childbirth.

Traditions about the woman being isolated until she was purified grew over time but they're not based on Church teaching. Perhaps it was a way of keeping the woman away from infections that others might be carrying whilst she was recovering from childbirth. Or maybe it was so that she wasn't inundated with visitors and the extra work involved when she was exhausted. Or maybe it was to do with earlier traditions about menstrual and post birth blood.

My mam was churched after each of us were born but I never even thought about it.

I think Swanny is right, though, I understood 'churching' was more to do with the purification of the woman than with thanksgiving for the safe delivery of a child although that would be part of it.

You were not allowed to visit anyone's home - presumably until you had been 'cleansed' after childbirth.

Wilma wrote:
"It does strike me as harking back to the days when women could be considered unclean"
Leviticus 12 - "The Lord said to Moses, 2 “Say to the Israelites: ‘A woman who becomes pregnant and gives birth to a son will be ceremonially unclean for seven days, just as she is unclean during her monthly period. 3 On the eighth day the boy is to be circumcised. 4 Then the woman must wait thirty-three days to be purified from her bleeding. She must not touch anything sacred or go to the sanctuary until the days of her purification are over. 5 If she gives birth to a daughter, for two weeks the woman will be unclean, as during her period. Then she must wait sixty-six days to be purified from her bleeding."
Amazing how some of these beliefs/traditions continue, and irritating that it's shorter after a boy than a girl

Echoing what M0nica says.
I find it hard to imagine that N Yorkshire was such a superstitious place within our lifetime. No accounting for previous generations, of course, but in this day and age?
Let's not attribute primitive ideas of "uncleanness" to a rather nice church ervice of thanksgiving. And surely we are still thankful for a healthy baby and a healthy mum?

Swanny, there is nothing wrong with the church service for giving thanks for the safe birth of a child.

That some people have woven all other kinds of superstitions and practices round this service and, in places, enforced them by peer pressure, has nothing to do with religious practice and were not universal.

When my sister was born, at the catholic church my family attended, the service consisted of separate prayers after the christening, no attendant bans nor, for that matter, any bans on the pram entering the house.

Wilma, not at all, no staying in , none of what Swanny claims, it was Anglican not RC, perhaps Swanny is referring to RC practices , but yet I never heard of friends who were RC experiencing what Swanny, describes,

Yes I heard all those old wives tales before I had my children but being a practical gal I took no notice whatsoever and as I was thousands of miles from any friends and family did it all on my own without advice
Can't believe anyone still follows them nowadays with all our medical knowledge , what will happen will happen immaterial of bought prams or not
How can an inanimate object decide your child's fate

It does strike me as harking back to the days when women could be considered unclean.

The 'churching' practice I think is disgusting. DS was born in N Yorkshire and the custom was very prevalent there at that time. Other new mums in the nursing home with me didn't agree with it but had to concede to the wishes of their DMs and DMILs.
Visitors to see the new baby were not allowed in the house till mother had been churched - purified - so husbands or grandmothers had to take the new infant outside to greet well-wishers, whatever the time of year. 'Suffer little children to come unto me'? Yeah, right