To want to ban all outsourcing , tendering and rediscover the joys of institutional cohesion?

I went to a rotten convent grammar school, When, where all the unmarried teachers went home as soon as the last lesson ended. No clubs, drama, sport.......
However, I think the OP was about much more than education - perhaps somebody has some ideas as to why all shades of government have continued to dish out these lucrative contracts to firms who have manifestly failed in the past. Of course, I am just an old cynic.............

Otw10413 I agree: costly method of procurement.

If you look at PFI/PPP contracts, where public bodies liaise with private companies during a 'competitive dialogue process'. The taxpayer is in essence paying twice for the same thing; paying towards the loan and the interest on the public body/government funding side and then paying again when the public body/government makes monthly payments to the private companies for their side of the loan plus interest. Plus of course the profit they make. Short-sighted.

Actually , I think Grammar schools were generally full of poor teaching but a lot of people did benefit from the level at which the teaching could be aimed. Someone needs to explain to me why , if we all have very different gifts of abilities ( emotional , practical,artistic , scientific etc.etc. ) why do we have every sort of employment path running towards a degree ?What is wrong with streaming if you can put greater investment into those that would otherwise have difficulties by allowing them to have smaller classes and a wider range of practical courses , whilst the more academically able will generally fair well in larger classes with frankly dull but challenging teaching (I had to survive heraldry classes !! ) .

I went to grammar school, Greatnan and definitely don't want them to come back. They still have them in nearby Trafford.

Of course Britain has made great strides in attitudes towards racism, sexism, and homophobia and there have been huge advances in medicine although the NHS is now in a parlous state. Education is infinitely better than it was for the majority in my day (I suspect the only people who want to bring back grammar schools are those who went to one).
None of these improvements have anything to do with the constant awarding of contracts to useless organisations.

The general public are not protesting because they don't know about it! As the proprietors of most newspapers are themselves using all kinds of tax avoidance schemes, (including The Guardian) they are not likely to be too vociferous about the scandals of the big four accounting firms which are still allowed to audit companies when they have been complicit in irregularities.
I can't reproduce page after page of Private Eye, but it is not an expensive magazine and certainly opens your eyes to what is going on in government, the NHS, military procurement, the police, and 'jobs for the boys'. Try googling 'Dave Hartnett', former head of the Inland Revenue, and see how much he allowed some companies to get away with, and where he is now earning a fat salary.

galen i was referring to private sector, which is where most outsourcing takes place. (up to now any way)
And you know as well as I do that a lot of the tests, procedures and drugs are much more sophisticated and expensive than they were 40 years ago. Even if the nursing was better. Friend of mine has just been discharged after 54 days in a single room, getting treated for a sudden onset blood cancer. He would not have made it in the 60s. And he certainly would not have had a single room to protect him from infection with his neutrophils at zero.
Like many other illnesses, the outcomes are much better - so if you judge the NHS in that way, IT is better.
When I went to grammar school it was in a bunch of sheds with no sports pitches. The buildings had been put up as temporary just after WW1 (this was in the 60s). The books were falling to bits and the teachers lamented there was no money to replace them. Much of the teaching was dry an lacking in inspiration. In 6th form I had the advantage of tiny groups for science teaching. If I had gone to a sec mod there would have been no science labs at all and even fewer facilities. Then as now, if you have a highly selected intake the results will be quite good.
I think now even the worst comprehensive school is way better than the secondary modern education available in the 60s (in much of the country - there may have been exceptions). A wider curriculum, a chance to do all subjects because there are facilities above and beyond the minimum (perhaps a domestic science room). And let us not forget that those who went to sec mod - the vast majority, finished their education completely at 14 or 15. Raised to 16 in the 70s. Ofsted requirements have cranked up year on year and the quality of teaching is hugely improved - you cannot get away with doing dictation all lesson, every lesson, like my history teacher used to do.

Oh Otw- I wouldn't reintroduce grammar schools (some towns still have them) But - if you introduced all your other ideas, I would not oppose you keeping the grammar schools already in existence. I went to 7 primary schools, and sat the 11 plus 3 days after arriving at the new school. there was no national curriculum, so I "did" the Vikings and Anglo Saxons several times, but never established confidence with maths, which was taught differently every school I went to. I went to a secondary modern school, with a head teacher who I now know to have been a dedicated, and excellent man. We were streamed, had houses, sports days, produced Gilbert and Sullivan operas and did choral speaking. The whole school was involved in the twice yearly productions, one play, one G&S, so if you weren't a singer, maybe you could act. We had seamstresses and carpenters, and I remember a real buzz. So I was lucky - until we moved again, and the next secondary modern didn't do O levels, which I was half way through. The head from my 1st school wrote to the grammar school in our new area, to say I should have had a place at 11 and was expected to get good grades at O level. Sadly, I went to a dreadful Sec Mod, with bullying and absolutely no commitment to education. I took myself off to the local FE college and did some A levels and went on to Uni. That option will be much less open now. The cost of University will exclude so many young people who didn't get qualifications at the "right age". Get back on that soap box, if you'd run the world when I was 15, I'd have gone on to the grammar school, done my O levels, and gone on to A levels at the "right' age, rather than in my 20's.

Fair point , sexual and racial prejudice has been exposed as the pathetic side of human nature that it is but I'm not sure that the 'wealth generated' is being spent effectively and I am sure that , like America, the rich /poor divide is a growth area that we should be distancing ourselves from.

Grammars rivalled the traditional 'public' schools ; the ones again producing a depressingly high number of Oxbridge and Russell group candidates . It allowed intellectually capable children to be given a 'classical' education . Personally , on my soap box , I would reintroduce them with the stipulation that children can only apply if they have attended state primary schools ( also, it should be possible to enter at 11, 13 and 16). Furthermore I would allow education to be an ageless resource . Those kids who fail to gain basic qualifications at 16/18 should be given a chance to return ( FOC) when and if they want later in life . Also I would re-introduce an apprenticeship system which would value the very real fact that practical intelligence is vital in our society ( some of the the most successful folk I know are plumbers, electricians and carpenters ). Oh, I'm loving my soap box ( half of me is laughing at myself because I'm generally a quiet, non-argumentative type) and I'm sorry if you disagree with my views . Children are all different , it doesn't mean they cannot work as one but they have individual needs and I'm not sure that a one size fits all approach maximises potential. Sorry , I'll leap off my box and wait for the answer ......

Hi Jess M - I agree with your views on the various improvements since the 60's. Grammar schools may have been good for those who got places. Secondary Modern schools were not good for the vast majority. Yes, some working class children made the leap as a result of grammar schools, but the vast majority were consigned at 11 to poor education, and the knowledge they were "failures".
Good comprehensive schools are so much better than the previous system. Poor comps seem usually to be in areas of high deprivation, with all the problems associated with poverty.
A very close friend who is now 72 and lived in the same town as me in the 60's, talked about his sense of affirmation when he was escorted, aged 18 to a gay bar. It would have been illegal for him to form a sexual relationship with another man. But he said it was such a joy to realise he wasn't alone, as there were 8 other men in the bar. He believed that was the sum total of gays in our town - briefly.
Sometimes, I feel our generation has't contributed as much to improvements as we would have liked, but reflecting on the progress for women, gay men and women, race etc, confirms progress has been made. Long may it continue.

Sorry JessM I have yo disagree.
I thing grammar schools were good.

The NHS has definitely deteriorated

oh darn. Long post earlier did not register. Got distracted by the athletics maybe.
Two points:
There is no contest between being a woman or gay or a member of an ethic minority in the workplace if you compare the 1960s to now. Huge improvement.
also
It is clear that the organisations of this country are more effective and efficient than they were then. The amount of wealth generated is vastly greater. This is what allows a much higher relative expenditure on education and other public services than in the 1960s.

Nothing at all wrong with the grammar school system, it worked, as much as anything is allowed to work. I assume a lot of you will have a greenhouse to bring on the more sensitive and suitable plants? Nothing wrong with weeds either, they are the same as your special plants, but in the wrong place.
If people had realised that their Johnny was never going to be a teacher, doctor judge, whatever school he attended, and steered him in the direction he probably wanted to go in anyway, to become a plumber, or the like. The better everything would have been.
Some politician realised it would be a good vote catcher to mix kids up a bit see that everyone got a certificate to placate the parents. To do that meant dumbing down a bit making the exams easier, inventing a few subjects to pass, and holding back the more academic. Those that attend university now often have to take a term or more before they are capable of even starting their studies not being clever enough to start.
As a country we are way down on the academic scale, far behind many other countries, and fiddling around repeatedly with the system doesn't help. A concerted effort to get it right, once and for all, is what is required.Each slight change effects, several "years" of children,who have to adapt to the change, it isn't fair.

I agree with Otw's original post, other than the grammar school bit. I'm in the camp that believes grammar schools contributed to social division.
Greatnan is right to say the Labour party would benefit if more people joined and became active at local meetings. I find our local meetings are dominated by the same group who have dominated for years. I realise if I want to influence, I need to be active, but my experience on and off over many years hasn't left me feeling positive about that. Like Otw, I am surprised there isn't more public dissent about privatisation, especially given the mess that so many private organisations have made (G4S, hospital cleaning etc).

The rich, strong and powerful have always exploited the poor, weak and powerless. We just know more about it now. I wish I could think that a change of government would mean that the 'old boy network' would lose some of its grip, but since 1997 I have become totally disillusioned. For a time, I thought the Libdems might offer us a ray of hope - more disappointment.
The Labour party is putting its own apparatchiks into safe seats, instead of the local grass roots members. The answer is for ordinary people to join the party, attend meetings, make a lot of noise in the local media.
I can't do that, as I am non-resident, but I pay tax in England and I have a large family living there - even if this did not apply, injustice and exploitation would still make me very angry.
If I lived in England, I might vote for the Socialist Workers Party, if they put up a candidate.

Dear Jess,
Of course there are many things better in life : the quality and variety of sandwiches and coffee have hugely improved ( tuna, egg and cress and ham being the staples of my impoverished childhood) but united, principled moral business etiquette , in my very humble opinion, is not a 'growth industry '.

Apologies, I am on my soap box ( even though it's Tuesday) but I want to see a fairer world and to the rest of you , nanaej, whenim64, and Greatnan , I agree and I am increasingly shocked that no-one is screaming out about the break-down of efficiency or effectiveness when contracting out is the only governing principle. I was shocked but not surprised by your revelations .

It was definitely never perfect but I didn't think we'd venture so far from common sense . ��

Yes I do Ana

I think that if people are being exploited by people more powerful then they should work together for fairer and better conditions that benefit everyone.

There will be examples that anti-unionists will quote about instances of unions 'holding the firm /company to ransom'etc. Unions only happened because industrialists and bosses held the workers to ransom! ie put up or lose your job!

If the workforces had been treated well and paid fairly by bosses then there would be no need for a lobby group to improve things.

HMP Northumberland is being privatised to be run by Sodexo, a facilities management company that used to supply catering and building maintenance for probation, before being bounced. That's the one whose hanyman I remember leaving a ladder propped up against the wall of a curfew-locked hostel, down which the majority of the residents disappeared befre being spotted by staff. Oh yes, and there was the cook who insisted on leaving the back door open because she was so hot (the fan did work), with all her knives out on the counter top. I say all.......the daily knife count found they were one down! Not found when rooms and grounds were searched. There were many more such incidents. That prison will be in such good hands!

Oh my goodness otw is there nothing about UK organisational life that has improved since the so called "good old days"?

Oh my goodness otw is there nothing about UK organisational life that has improved since the so called "good old days"?

In the latest Private Eye - in the Ministry of Justice's prison ratings, two of the three in the worst category are run by G4S and Serco. Cost cutting to obtain contracts means that prisoners are not being treated humanely - some are in their cells for 23 hours a day.
Revolving door - Lieutenant General Gary Coward, KBE who was in charge of supplies and logistics for land forces until last October will now work 20 days a year for Telereal Trillium as it bids to run the army's barracks and bases in the UK.

Dear Hilda,
What is the list called? I do shop at the co-op and JL but I also shop at Aldi ( only way I can afford to shop at Waitrose) . I think, as I get older , it is only my conscience that counts and whilst I buy my clothes from expensive outlets ( East etc. in the sales ) I can't be sure they aren't coming from sweatshops.

Greatnan , and Mishap , I completely agree . Anyone who tried to catch a bus after denationalisation realised that treating everything like a market simply doesn't work . My beloved husband made the point that g4 , a private company who tendered for security at the Olympic games , cost the country millions as we had to draft in police and the armed forces to do what they had tendered for .

Ana, in the seventies both sides had points to be made but neither side were listening . I don't like the fact that our governments and unions can be dominated by deaf , power-crazed opportunists , but that's humanity for you . I like even less , however, that millions of perfectly good hard-working people can be treated with no respect for their contributions to a profitable business and have their working contracts and conditions made under an ' if you don't like it, you know what you can do ' philosophy .

I know I'm old now , because so many things seems to have changed without any real ethical or moral progress . The NHS and welfare state ( not perfect but humane) will be gone and that will remove , in one swift chop, a truly noble and morally superior human development through government . Our university fees are ensuring that upper middle class families regain their domination of higher education and too many of our young people are left on the scrap heap .

Deeply saddened , otw !

"Institutional cohesion" - indeed. We have lost this. Hospital staff all working together as a team with their hearts in it. Now there are endless private organisations providing aspects of the "care." And it is a pig's ear.

The basis of the system is political and has nothing to do with what works best.

Otw10413, you are so right about people using perfectly decent organisations to create personal power - most systems can be twisted by those who shout loudest and bully the rest of us.
There are lists of companies who are seen by their employees as doing a decent job - I believe its published every year - have certainly cast my eyes over it from time to time.
Organisations like the Co-op also have ethical views (however I am rarely impressed by their service levels when I use their supermarkets, and their Retail banking sector is having a few problems).
Consumers can do a lot by 'voting with our purses' but I accept that its not always convenient or affordable.
I have made a few consumer choices of late, that I doubt do much but they salve my conscience just a little. I have totally abandoned Tesco. Rarely buy cheap clothing (went into Primark once and came out inwardly screaming) - have actually starting 'up cycling' or I buy better quality clothing in seasonal sales. Use small local shops and services as much as I can. Research new firms a little before I use them e.g. was attracted to a holiday company but on closer examination realised they were part of a huge global company with a poor overall customer service (which usually indicates they cut corners in other aspects of their trading)

Ana - do you believe that any workers' rights would have been granted without the unions? Employers ran their own 'union' - a person who fell foul of one would be blacklisted by all of them.
Certainly some unions were taken over by people with their own personal agenda, but the answer was for more members to attend meetings and vote. A few hot-heads gave the general public the idea that teachers were largely communists, whereas as any ex-teacher will know, most classroom teachers tended more to political apathy or were slightly right wing. However, most primary school teachers were working mothers who felt they had attended enough meetings during the day and did not feel like going out again at night for a union meeting. (The union leaders were mainly young, childless people.) With the amount of extra paperwork they have to do now, I doubt whether many would have an evening to spare!

I agree Hilda, but the problem is there are no boundaries for private companies. Trade unions , like every powerful institution , became tools for those who sought power not progress ( they were necessary because the labour force was exploited) I wonder whether there is a way that , as consumers , we can obtain a list of ethical co-operatives- Fair trade for the UK if you like . Perhaps employees could be allowed to rate their companies ....... anonymously, obviously because otherwise there would no doubt be dismissals by the bucket load ! How about making employees' views part of the service offered . If we know employees are valued , we will doubtless see it in the quality of service provided. If you have any sources of such information , let me know , otherwise perhaps Gransnet could start one?