To ask why the police took no action?

I think we are going round in circles. Those of us who have worked in the care part of the public and voluntary sector have an insider's view of how resourcing to do the ideal job, or even a good enough job, is hampered on many levels, and those who are seeing the media's reporting of what goes on are justifiably frustrated that no-one seems to be learning lessons and applying them.

Yes, these children and their families should have been listened to (being removed from a family as a result of abuse or neglect doesn't negate their concern that the children should be safe). Yes, police could have explained that their need for 1st grade evidence doesn't end an investigation when they can't get it.

Blaming social workers, police and care homes is all well and good. The majority go beyond the bounds of duty to practise their vocation. Resourcing and training to bring them all up to standard is only part of the problem. We can leave them to do a job and criticise when things break down, and complain that they get paid for doing little. They all have to evidence that their systems and practice meet national standards, and explain why when they don't. It's always lack of experienced staffing and resources. They are exhausted and things are getting worse. They get out as soon as they get chance because the job is so stressful, and when you're prioritising lots of crises at once, the wheel comes off.

Social workers are trained to prioritise horrible problems that can't be juggled, so they have to make judgement calls and take unacceptable risks. Until there are enough resources, that won't change.

Police get shifted from one task to another and information gets recorded by civilians, or logged under titles that don't always fit other, similar complaints, as it's the crime reference number that is used, until intelligence is gathered that cross-references when incidents are recorded on VISOR (intelligence on sexual and violent offences and offenders), hence the issue about more, similar incidents needing to be reported.

A full investigation will show what else can be done, and you can bet yet another layer of paperwork and middle management will be added! It's like wading through treacle!

By the way, if you think about the energy being put into this thread, you can get a glimpse of how much social workers and police officers working in this field do care. They want to get it right - there are easier ways to earn a living!

I would have been really shocked had you not received such a positive and understanding response from imams. And I think we are all aware that not all imams preach hatred and distrust - I'm actually a bit surprised that you felt it necessary to include that comment.

You might have found it more useful to talk to the sort of muslim men who don't think like that, and no matter what you may say, there are a lot of them.

Racism and sexism have to be recognised before they can be tackled. Denying that the problem exists only encourages wrongdoing.

Nellie yes, I do understand the challenges that those looking after such damaged children face. But it seems that abuse of these children has been rife for decades and what's been done to try and address the wrongs of the past has done nothing to improve the situation now.

when I think I did preface Pakistani with some. I am not attempting to malign a whole culture. But, all these gangs that have been convicted of grooming young girls have comprised predominately Asian men and the girls, predominately white, British. That's all I'm saying. Yet one hears there is no cultural link we are told by those who should know.

Interesting to read Faye's comment above about the situation in Australia. Maybe they call a spade a spade there.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/10060349/Oxford-grooming-ring-council-and-police-chiefs-should-consider-their-positions.html and once again, no-one will admit responsibility for failure to do their job properly! I think it is quite significant that this whole case has been about responsibility.

Having visited mosques for private visits and meetings, around the Manchester area with groups of young female offenders, many of whom have been victims of sexual abuse, and who did not have the clothes that would enable them to dress as modestly as their Muslim counterparts, I can say hand on heart that they were treated with great respect and interest by the mosque leaders. No judging or dismissal of them as anything other than young women to be nurtured and protected.

Not all Imams preach hatred and mistrust, nor do they regard white girls as trash. We do them a disservice by generalising about Imams and young Asian men being misogynistic. The media can always find extremists when they want to make a point, but it isn't necessarily so.

Isn't Gransnet rather hampered by the lack of contributions from Asian grandmothers and grandfathers? There are so many third generation Asian British people of our age range that also enjoy surfing the net and joining discussions, it would be good to hear their views.

Sel
It is very difficult legally to "lock children up" in care homes to prevent them going out and engaging in behaviour which is damaging to themselves.
Because of past care scandals Children's services seem to have less powers to control children's behaviour than do parents.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pindown

It needs a court to agree to a secure accommodation order which usually only operates for 3 months. This is not long enough to have much effect in changing the child's behaviour. In fact it seems pretty pointless unless the period is long enough to effect change.

The most vulnerable of these children are often so damaged that they do not know the difference between good and bad relationships. Most children in care have suffered from very serious abuse or family dysfunction. You don't get into care these days unless things are dire.

So while no one feels the care system is perfect you do have to look at the challenges these very damaged children bring with them.

Yes there were failings in police and social care but in reality changing the behaviour of these children is not easy. They end up forming a large part of the prison population.

nchacti01.uuhost.uk.uu.net/carelaw/secure.shtml

There was a discussion on local radio about this case yesterday and a Imam from a local mosque said that in too many mosques young men are being taught that young white girls are not worth anything while young Muslim girls are to be protected. His view was that this was the reason young white (and black) girls are targeted.

Of course this type of thing isn't restricted to the Asian community, there are abusers from all races and religions.

Perhaps there is too much emphasis in schools on the mechanics of sex and not enough on the emotional side. Teach girls self respect and teach boys that pressurising girls into having sex is wrong.

The lack of response by the police, social workers and care home workers in this case should lead to an investigation and, at the very least, retraining.

Sel misogyny is not confined to a few Asian men. Many white British men have appalling attitudes to women and children, and see them as fair game for ill-treatment. These latest offences have to be seen in context, not just as evidence of racist views towards white girls.

Victim studies look at availability and vulnerability of groups or individuals, as do those who want to harm them. If paedophiles are hell-bent on offending, they have to create opportunities, isolate their victims from their protectors, groom them sufficiently that the victim/s will accept their ill-treatment, and secure their silence by threats, coercion, bribery or convincing them that no harm is being done.

If Asian girls had been available and out there on the streets with white girls, they would not have been immune from the same abuse from those misogynistic Asian men.

The problem with with paedophiles, amongst many other factors, is that they don't discriminate when the opportunity to offend arises. I have never yet met a paedophile, whatever race or culture he comes from who, when presented with an opportunity to sexually offend, would say 'you need to be careful that you don't get exploited - go home.'

You would think k these so called social workers, and the like, would have learned a lesson or two about looking after needy children by now. God knows there have been enough harrowing stories around in recent times.

Actually, as recent events have shown, a lot of white men consider white girls to be trash and just there to be exploited - the underlying cause is men's attitudes towards girls and women. Some attitudes fostered by some religions don't help clearly. And goodness me, Stuart Hall got the OBE and was seen as a national treasure embodying the values of our country!!

Yes, I add my thanks to Butty for the link. I don't think the case you describe, whenim is an exact match with the Oxford situation. It appears that the witnesses refused co-operate so the perpetrators couldn't be identified. In the case of the Oxford children, there appears to have been plenty of objective evidence of crimes being committed and a number of witnesses or potential witnesses.

How very sad it is that the most vulnerable have so little protection. It's a complete misnomer then, being in care. I'm sure there are people involved who truly do care and that's equally sad and dispiriting.

I was also listening to the mother of 'Girl 3' and to the girl herself on the radio yesterday. The mother had constantly tried to get help and got nowhere. In this instance both Social Services and the Police let them down in an appalling manner. I doubt anyone will be sacked though.

I would still stand by my point that there is a racial element here that the authorities constantly deny. Why? Some Pakistani men believe white girls to be trash and less than human and deserving of whatever is done to them. These men are often born here for goodness sake. Where is the adoption of the values of this country?

Rant over - better get on with my list.

The artice that Butty linked us to, near the beginning of this thread, is illuminating and addresses many of the queries that are being put here.

This quote, in the last paragraph is so pertinent:

'........ it will take a lot more basic human respect for people who don't necessarily tick the boxes of respectability. But before we can do any of that we have to decide, collectively, to listen.'

Time and again, children/teenagers and young women who are cast adrift, or drift off despite belonging to loving homes, get caught up with men who offer them flattery, money, drugs, a place to sleep, then they feel unable to voice their vulnerability because they might have stepped out of line, or they expect to be judged negatively.

I have watched non-specialist police officers take a female offender's complaint of rape, commenting 'what were you doing there at that time of night, when you should have been back in the hostel?' Well, she wasn't, but the penalty for being a few minutes late is not rape! Would they have asked that question of a 'respectable' young woman who missed her last bus home?

Communities judge wayward girls and close their ears to their problems because they might have seen them drinking from a can on the street, or dressed provocatively. 'They ask for it' we hear time and again. 'Oh, it's that rabble from the children's home.'

Social workers are not allowed to lock girls into care homes. I know of many who have been driving round looking for girls at night, in ther own time, unpaid (done it myself), and they are advised in supervsion with their line manager 'if you carry on worrying and wearing yourself out, you'll get burnt out and be off with stress.' They can't win. The many who really care don't have the power or the resources to solve this on their own.

Yes, police should investigate and social workers should listen, care homes should 'care.' But communities are their eyes and ears, too, and if we see suspicious behaviour or vulnerable children at risk, we could do more to help the authorities. So many witnesses don't want to get involved, such as the neighbours who watched a female offender get thrown out of a car into the road outside my hostel. She was half-dressed, drunk and drugged and had been sexually assaulted. Witnesses who saw the car were seen by staff and asked if they would speak to the police but they walked off. She could describe the (white) men but not their car. They tried to investigate, and other girls speculated who they were, but to no avail. Those men will have done that again, and the authorities will be criticised for not apprehending them.

I think Deedaa is making the point I was trying to make. If a child is in danger, which these children in Oxford obviously were, for a senior police officer to say they couldn't take any action until they added all the cases together seems very odd. Injured girl, bunch of men, drugs? Complaing from member of the public? Adoptive mother repeatedly reporting it? If it were a baby, they wouldn't Just let it go. And these girls surely weren't old enough to be left to make life decisions by themselves!

There were gang rapes by Muslim Lebanese in Australia in 2000. They targeted white Australian girls and were described as ethnically motivated hate crimes. The gang rapes were the cause of new legislation in NSW. The rapists showed no remorse and received stiff sentences.

It does happen.

Nelliemoser when I followed your link it was to reports of abuse in childrens' homes. Not the same. Yes, that is totally appalling and something that sadly, seems to have been rife. Quite how it could happen to children who were 'in care' is beyond me. Cared for by whom?

The abuse by the gang from Oxford was similar to the gang from Rochdale and the ones from Rotherham and Blackpool. What they had in common was the men involved were all Pakistani or North African and Moslem and they preyed on white girls. I agree with Elothean inasmuch as these girls were available; girls from the mens' own ethnic background weren't.

Surely the authorities should protect everyone without any concern about being accused of racism? Trotting out statistics about the sexual abuse of young girls by white men appears to me to be some sort of misguided attempt to whitewash this very real issue.

Elothean I am not using this very grave issue to have a go at a particular community as you suggest (sub text: I am being racist), I am perplexed at how this can be allowed to happen time and time again and those, supposedly in charge of protecting children, the children who need protection the most, can deny there is any problem.

Why do white sex offenders target white girls rather than Asian girls? I would suggest that the reason sex offenders - whether Asian or white - target white girls is because white girls tend to be under less parental/"care" home supervision than Asian girls - so it's largely a question of availability. In most of the cases that have arisen recently, the white girls involved were described as "troubled", "out of control" "vulnerable". Unlike Asian girls, whose movements are very restricted, these white girls were hanging around the streets at all hours of the day and night, etc., and were obvious targets for sexual predators.

Had Asian girls been as available and vulnerable as the white girls in these cases, they would have no doubt been equally badly treated.

I agree with nellie - people in all types of communities need to seriously address the issue of sexual abuse and to put in place safety measures to protect young people from predatory sex offenders.

I don't think it's helpful to use a grave issue like this as an opportunity to have a go at a particular community.

sel

Yes the current spate of convictions have largely been of Asian gangs. No one has denied that. The point being made is that they are by no means the only people doing this. The White British are quite capable of organising child sexual abuse on a large scale.

I will repeat my previous observations.

Look at all the sexual abuse we know about now, that was going on in children's homes in the 60s, 70s and 80s. These children were being passed about for exploitation by white staff in the homes to other persons not working in the care system.

Look at the abuse in the homes and schools run by the Christian Brothers and the Roman Catholic and other churches.
They were proclaimed Christians, they were not Muslim's but they still committed sexual abuse.

More and more cases of sexual abuse by these nice harmless White Christian people keeps being revealed.

Just run your eyes down this list and read the reports if you can face them.

www.google.co.uk/search?source=ig&hl=en&rlz=&q=sexual+abuse+in+childrens+homes&btnG=Google+Search.

I stopped counting at 4Google pages citing such abuse in different parts of the UK.

Just because recent convictions have been of groups of Asian men does not mean that they alone perpetrate these crimes.

On a very practical level if the child protection agencies started playing a "blame the Asians game" they could become complacent about the reality and dangers of sexual abuse from our White British home grown peadophile groups by almost implying that we Brits could never do such things.

The thing that worried me was that there were social workers who apparently weren't all that bothered about young girls who had been routinely got drunk, drugged and beaten. What sort of care are children in care getting? In the case of the police who were called to the hotel where the girl was being raped why did they drop the case when the girl wouldn't press charges? Surely underage sex is underage sex whether she complains or not.

Why the denial? I just don't understand it. We all know that some men, of whatever ethnic origin have abused women but all these gangs have comprised men of predominately Pakistani origin and Moslem to boot.

And yes, I know there are white men who abuse girls, there are Eastern European gangs who traffic girls but this is different and denying that fact is doing a profound disservice to the young and vulnerable. How appalling that the very people who should protect them don't. What a mockery of the term being in care

There will be the predictable denials but I, for one, don't remember anything equating to this in the past. How many cases now? Shame on the social workers and shame on the Police.

Forgot to add, these vulnerable girls in Rochdale were not exclusively hanging around with one particular group of paedophiles, some of them would move between the different rings. The victims of sexual abuse have to cope with what is surrounding them, and the relative control they would experience when dealing with 'dirty old men who gve us money for whatever' could be attractive on occasion. I do know they were giving information to the authorities about those men, too, and the Street Worker support agency were disseminating information about keeping safe.

noodles I don't have access to internal stats now I'm retired, but they don't get updated in comparison with the England and Wales population every year, anyway. The Home Office researchers look for anomalies and consistencies by comparing incidence of offences and victim type across the population with the stats gathered from prisons and probation, which match against court results. They also send out questionnaires to professionals, asking them what they see as the prevailing problems in their area of work, by geographical area. They pick up issues that stand out and commission further research.

Whilst the investigation into the Rochdale paedophile ring was being done, lots of girls leaving care, runaways (homeless provision in Rochdale attracts them there), sex workers and white female offenders were gravitating to elderly white paedophiles who could provide a floor to sleep on, food, cigarettes and heroin. These men were not all on the sex offender register and portrayed themselves as old and harmless, but had girls performing sex acts for them.

I haven't come across a group of black sex offenders abusing white girls exclusively, although I know some black Manchester gangs have abused both white and black girlfriends of rival gangs. The demography of Rochdale, prevalence of Asian takeaways and taxi businesses running in tandem, and white girls gravitating to both that group and elderly white paedophiles needs to be examined closely, as I am sure it is now. There has been a conference about these issues in Rochdale today.

Whenim64 So, you don't have any stats on men from one ethnicity preying on young, vulnerable girls solely from another ethnicity?

If you had a group or say a dozen or so white men who sought out and groomed only young black african women, over a period of years, would the racial dimension be discounted?

Perhaps the statistics do need to be updated, pdq.

What is the point in trying to water it down? They think muslim girls are untouchable whilst treating white girls as trash.