Diana Melly webchat for Dignity In Dying, Monday 26 March, 11am-noon

Lilygran Nurses and doctors are now being forced to work with abortion or leave their chosen vocations

I can only think two things in answer to that bagitha
One when we give ourselves the right to take a life and in particular one so young that could well have been helped to have a life that could have given her happiness then we are taking over God's role

But we are also taking away something precious from that young mother
That is the ability to have more children To have a loving useful life
The more experienced among us know that grief takes over your life but not forever you can be helped
The insurance company put money before life
I am a mother who has lost two children and yes it rips the very heart out of you

I needed and eventually got the love that showed me life can and does go on

That does not mean you stop loving your dead children believe me
It does not mean they mean any less
I still have days when I cry my heart out
But I know i have given some useful things to this world

I think you will find that carenotkilling website have actually been very careful
not to print anything that is not true

They have not printed just how far along the laws are in Holland

They also do not print the true state of affairs

A huge part of my family live in Holland and must depend on the health care

One member also works in health care

The only reason abortion was brought into the conversation was to show the progress a decision can have

To show that a bill may well have good intentions but can run away with itself and take on another life

Jackie I think you have a confused view
Their is nothing wrong with refusing treatment

I would probably opt for your decision if nothing valuable could be done

But i think their are many dangers in allowing people to choose to kill other people

I am happy to answer questions

I have spent many years campaigning on pro life issues which include all issues of protecting bodies with proper consent

I also worked hard to gain proper consent for post mortem

nelliedeane and luckyrose I am very sorry for your loss

Unconsidered response? Hardly.

I'm very sorry indeed for people who want to be dead and are unable to do anything about it. I'm also very concerned that in an unconsidered response to their desperate needs, we may end up creating the kind of society none of us would want to live in. We all need to be involved in a proper discussion of the issues involved in allowing euthanasia. The law isn't some entity with an independent life of its own, it is an outcome of society - which is us.

I am very sorry to hear your story, luckyrose. I recently posted a thread about Tony Nicklinson who suffers from 'locked in' syndrome and whose life is a great burden to him. He wants to die but cannot do it himself and at the moment his doctor cannot accede to his wishes. It is inhumane to force people to live when their life has no meaning for them and is, in fact, a living nightmare.

luckyrose

A thought provoking discussion my daughter attempted suicide and was left a paraplegic for five years because she was 'saved'.She still wanted to die and the condition she was left in I didn't want her to live. That is not the same as saying I wanted her to die , she passed away 18 months away.

I don't have to deal with it - the law will deal with it. The doctor's terms of service are man made and not immutable.
Would you force people to go on living against their wishes?

My belief is
Thou shalt not kill
But should not strive
Officiously to
Keep alive!

Greatnan is still not addressing the issues. Saying that the person who wants to die will decide is one thing; guaranteeing that it will always and only be so is another. How do you/we deal with that? Nelliedean makes a good point as well. What about doctors who don't want to be involved? How can you guarantee that they won't at some time in the future, be required to put aside any conscientious objection because those objections are out of step with the majority view?

my daughter committed suicide after she was very badly abused by her partner,we never had any problems with regard to her cremation from the church.I wanted to live after she died,I also had a child die in infancy,but have also felt the need for peace and felt like giving up,my son and my grandaughter have kept my head above water....from a doctors point of view,wouldnt the hippocratic oath they take to preserve life have a bearing on their decision.

I object to other people's religious beliefs being used to impose laws on everybody. Nobody has proposed 'putting someone down' and you don't advance your argument by using that kind of language. The person who decides is the person who wants to die.

It seems to me Greatnan is complaining about what she thinks are the religious or other ethical positions adopted by people whose views she doesn't agree with. Address the issues. Who decides when someone is a suitable subject to be put down? All right as long as the individual herself decides but what guarantee do you have that this won't gradually slide into something else? Abby makes a valid and important point. We have already accepted that some humans are less valuable than others. The abortion example is strictly relevant, not an attempt to hijack a different argument.

Oh, dear, Godwin's Law is now in operation!
Life is a gift from whom? I presume this is another religious reference.

This is such an interesting thread, but where I think caution needs to be the watchword.

When one lives in a country where the State is benevolent, elected, and accountable to that electorate on a regular basis, then safeguards can be built in.

However, what if the State is not benevolent? Hitler and the Nazis were extremely efficient in how they dealt with people they considered had no right to live: not only Jews but gays,gypsies,and the mentally ill or those considered sub-normal. When life is not seen as a gift, then life can become cheap, and expendable, like so much in a consumerist society.

We must be careful what we wish for.

Unfortunately, I know of no country where you can leave a living will choosing to die if you become mentally incompetent. The two doctors have to be satisfied that you understand what you are doing.
The anti-abortion lobby will carry on trying to hijack every discussion even where it is completely irrelevant. I wish they would be honest about their agenda.

People who oppose voluntary euthanasia (meaning the person chooses) nearly always leap to arguments about euthanasia (no choice) and then to abortion and talk of slippery slopes. I always say no one forces another person to have an abortion and no one forces them to choose death but I would like the right for both to be freely available if I should want to make that choice. I cannot believe it is beyond the ability of our lawmakers to allow that choice and include all the safeguards needed so the opposition could not conjure up rows of little old ladies being killed for their money.

I always knew that if my only daughter died I'd want to die too. That option is not available now because she has children and I'd have to stay alive for their sakes but I find it difficult to know how anyone could condemn a woman who lost two children for deciding to die.

Agree with what , Lilygran? This thread is not about abortion.

Agree entirely. When abortion was made legal, we were assured it would only be made use of in a small number of really difficult cases and never for convenience or as a means of birth control. It doesn't matter how restricted the practice of euthanasia might be, the big step is to accept that it's OK for the rest of us to kill people as part of a medical continuum.

My mother, father myself and my husband have all signed and had witnessed
a LIVING WILL in which we declare that if we are very ill, dying, paralized etc,
then we only wish to have pain killers and water.
My father was dying very slowly of LUNG Cancer when he developed a pulmonary embulism.He refused further treatment and we showed the LW paperwork to the hospital doctors. Treatment was not started..... we had the law completely on our side!! Dad passed away in his sleep after 4 very peaceful
days!!He was 87+ years old and had lived a long and contented life. Maybe with treatment he may have lived a few more days...... mostly with painful treatment going on!!NO,NO ..... away with the Christians and the bishops..... after a long life, a peaceful death,no pain, no suffering.... Dad was mentally frail and never even understood that he had cancer!!
Many elderly people are too frail to understand their condition and thoughts and legal paperwork need to be put in place years before old age etc kicks in.
It is crazy to live on in zombie land...... I would never want to be a burden to my childen........ We need a similar arrangement as they have in Switzerland...... It is pointless to live in a mentally dead state...... After a long and happy life many elderly people in pain or as bright as a vegetable shoud be able to end their lives peacefully at a time of their choosing!!