Diana Melly webchat for Dignity In Dying, Monday 26 March, 11am-noon

Someone mentioned Harold Shipman further up this thread. Has the Shipman case made it much more difficult for doctors to 'help people on their way' in the way that they used to - very often at their own request and out of the kindest motives?

How much dignity is there in the Swiss method? I read somewhere that you have to be filmed and to be upright for the drugs to work. This seems less than ideal. Would it be different if assisted suicide were made legal in this country?

I am in favour of assisted suicide, but I do have one worry, which is that it could play into ageist assumptions that old people are not valuable for themselves, and the only people who are really valuable in our society are the ones who can work. There's the idea - often quoted - of Eskimo old people going off into the snow to die. (In fact, I don't think this is actually true). Lots of people seem to think this is a good idea and joke about it approvingly.
As a campaigning organisation, how do you emphasise the intrinsic value of older people at the same time as saying that they may well choose to die?

I would like to ask Diana about the attitude of the medical profession to the idea of assisted suicide. I think I have heard that the BMA is against it as a policy but that individual doctors sometimes will unofficially give that little extra help to a dying patient.

I have a friend who is a hospital consultant and she tells me that doctors quite often commit suicide when they are terminally ill. They use potassium chloride, I think (I would have to double check!) which is undetectable in the blood stream and looks like cardiac arrest. If this is true - and I trust my friend - then it seems doctors are already making the choice in some cases. Incidentally my friend is a pretty devout Catholic but says she would do this if she were terminally ill and facing great pain and indignity.

So I wanted to ask - are you familiar with this and doesn't it seem unfair that doctors who can get hold of drugs can do it but not the rest of us?

You just beat me to it, getmehrt. I would also like to know if she has come under any pressure from religious lobby groups.

There has been quite a lot of discussion of religion on this thread - so I'd like to ask what is Dignity In Dying's relationship to the various religious bodies in the country? have you approached them and if so what has their reaction been?

good question, Geraldine. A lot of opinions have been aired on this thread (mine included) and not enough questions asked. I'm still trying to think of one.

Thank you, Geraldine. Could we also ask if there is anything we can do to help apart from signing the various e-petitions and writing to MPs.

I realised from the beginning that you must have gone through an awful experience with death
I really feel for you it must have been heartbreaking for you
But with the greatest of respect so have I twice with children and also with my parents
So have many folk
That does not give me or any other person the right to make decisions which will make life mean less
"suspicion of the medical profession"
I have no undue suspicion about the medical profession I have more to thank them for than to criticise them for but neither am i unrealistic about them
This subject is as much about the medical profession as it is about the right to die because it is the medical profession who will be trusted with the care of folk who want to die
They will make the "decisions on whether a person will die"
I think this way if that had been my daughter or my son or me who wanted to die because of loss of loved ones then for my children and for me I would want all the help this world and my god could give

I certainly would not want a doctor with nothing else but money on their mind to decide it was better to let them or me die

When we make laws for our country we must look at every possible consequence

Our medical treatment may not be perfect but it will not be enhanced by giving the right to kill which will eventually be used to save money in the NHS

While we in Scotland are lucky SNP will never allow the sale of our NHS the English NHS has just been sold
It is within reason to assume that many will soon depend on the private sector for medical care and they will not have any feelings of compassion

Your posts about the taking of organs were made whilst I was typing so I had not read them when I posted. It would have been helpful if you had told us about your loss and grief right at the start then we would have been able to understand your position and suspicion of the medical profession more easily. Believe me, having stood by my daughter's bed for four hours watching her vomiting litres of blood from a punctured stomach and being told that no consultant was available on a Friday evening, I have every reason to be wary of doctors and the whole system, but this thread is not really about medical treatment, is it? It is about people who do not wish to live, for whatever reason, being given the right to make their own decision.
We cannot know that the young mother would have been able to live with her grief but I still do not believe that we should force other people to live against their wishes because we think it is right.

GREATNAN

I think you have completely missed my point

i am not saying I do have the right to tell a young mother to live

I am saying if she had been given love and the correct help she would not have wanted to die

Do you think it has not crossed the mind of many parents who have lost children or adults who have lost loved ones that they want to be with them

The point is that setting aside any religious view that to help kill an otherwise healthy young woman is a complete waste of a young life

Most of all it is a dereliction of duty of care because the doctors should have found some help for that young woman

That is not just my view that is the view of most folk otherwise we would offer the same service and not look on that situation with such horror

Again setting aside religion I made the point that with death their is no going back it is final

You also stated
As for taking tissue and organs from a dead child, that was clumsily done and nobody has defended it, but I am sure if the parents had been approached in a proper fashion they would have agreed, as they would want to help in the search for cures or treatment for disease.
I really think you need to stop dragging in irrelevant issues.

clumsily done --- again shows a total lack of understanding and want to understand

And remember i did not bring up the subject again you did

Had you read the above posts you will see it was brought in as were a number of issues to show that the medical profession while extremely good are not perfect

Lydia, why do you think you have the right to tell a bereaved mother that she must continue living? Surely that is her choice, and should not be dependent on your religious view of life?
Had my daughters died in dreadful circumstances, none of your compassionate people would have made the slightest difference to MY decision.
I have no desire or need to force you to do anything that makes you unhappy. I merely ask you to show the same humility - it is not your place to decide whether somebody can be comforted or not.
As for taking tissue and organs from a dead child, that was clumsily done and nobody has defended it, but I am sure if the parents had been approached in a proper fashion they would have agreed, as they would want to help in the search for cures or treatment for disease.
I really think you need to stop dragging in irrelevant issues.

The comment was made originally to simply show that although I believe most of heath professionals are wonderful people I still believe they are capable of doing wrong I am happy to not make anymore comments about it

You will find there are some kindred spirits on here Lydia. Why not start a separate thread about that issue of the children and their bereaved parents, and confine this debate to the one about Diana Melly's visit and assisted dying.

Carol this is a subject I am very passionate about so I am happy to post and answer any comments

I feel it is too important to sit back and ignore

It is the future for our children and our grandchildren that is why I see it as so important

Carol

Thank you for that post
I was one of the parents and also chair of the parents in Scotland
I am now very used to people who have little understanding
The reports in England and the reports in Scotland where I live were unfortunately a little short of truth
We fought hard for a new law
We got less than we should have but are hopeful in an independent Scotland

You're turning out to be a bit of a one-woman band Lydia. Shall we all have a reasoned discussion, or do we sit back until you run out of steam? I'm feeling exhausted for you!

How do you know that they are not motivated by compassion? Surely in the case of the young mother you mention, if she had not received medical help, she would have found another way to put and end to her misery.

If the doctors had had compassion they would see what I did

A broken hearted young mother who needed someone to put their arms round her and listen to her pour her heart out

And then that very day take her to a professional who had the ability to show her that grief does eventually pass and that life can be worth living

As the Chair of the parents whose children had organs taken I listened to parents who wanted to be with their children

I would show them love not death

If the decisions of these "Doctors" are not driven by finance how come they are the people lobbying to have the right to take control away from the sick the elderly and the parents of disabled children and babies

The right to kill at will

Their will

That is fact

Lydia it sounds like you are referring to the distressing treatment of babies who died at Alder Hey and Bristol, and the way in which parts of bodies and foetuses were incinerated or kept without permission of bereaved parents. I am very sorry to hear what you have said, if you are one of those parents. The Donaldson Report helpfully made recommendations so that no parent shoud have to go through such experiences again.

Please don't deduce from the debate going on here that people do not see that as important. Nothing could be further from the truth. The people you are addressing are kind-hearted and compassionate and have shown their consideration for others many times over in these forums in the past year since Gransnet started.

This debate is about assisted dying, and the forthcoming visit from Diana Melly, which is obviously going to be very interesting and thought-provoking. Take care